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Jeff Rubin and Oil Prices Revisited





Harris & Ewing Hot Air 1938
"Goodyear Blimp at Washington Air Post, Washington, D.C."

Jeff Rubin, former chief economist with Canadian bank CIBC, is very well known for his predictions of exponentially increasing oil prices (see for instance this 2009 lecture). Mr Rubin’s position was that prices would continue their rise due to a confluence of circumstances - that conventional supplies have peaked, that unconventional sources are expensive to produce and that demand would continue to grow with the energy requirement inherent in expanding global trade.

According to Mr Rubin, the assumption that transport costs would remain marginal led to the 2008 oil price spike, causing a global recession. In his opinion, high oil prices, not the sub-prime mortgage crisis, were the primary driver of financial crisis. This opinion is shared by many commentators. The simplistic approach of prediction by trend extrapolation is similarly common. In contrast, anticipation of trend changes is rare.

Mr Rubin’s price prediction was for oil first to pass $100/barrel and then reach $225/barrel by 2012, with continued growth and general price rises in an era of resource scarcity.

This was restated at the ASPO conference in November 2010, where Mr Rubin and I (both plenary speakers) ended up on opposite sides of the argument as to the prospects for growth, the trajectory for oil prices, the dynamics of the causative relationship between energy and finance, the nature of speculative bubbles, the importance of credit and debt, the probability of a major liquidity crunch, the basis for market prices, the applicability of positive versus negative feedback loops, whether or not equilibrium exists in economics, and almost every other important aspect of the way the world works.

We were, however, in agreement that resources are finite and that this will have very significant consequences in the future.

The position I espoused at the conference was that the oil price recovery from 2008/09 was close to peaking, and that, rather than the huge price spike Mr Rubin was predicting, we would see oil prices fall substantially over the next few years, as a result of financial crisis. The bursting of a thirty year financial bubble would be the primary driver of changes in the real economy, including the energy sector.

My explanation of the 2008 price spike and collapse, and also the manner in which next few years will play out, was (and continues to be) based on the context of the largest speculative bubble in human history. This has been a period of enormous inflation - a drastic increase in the supply of money and credit relative to available goods and services. Specifically we have seen a huge credit expansion, and, in the process, have accumulated a massive amount of debt on a global scale.

As we have explained many times at TAE before, credit hyper-expansions create excess claims to underlying real wealth through ever-increasing leverage. The additional purchasing power leads to the bidding up of assets prices, and, over time, to the expectation that prices can only continue to appreciate. The real economy becomes subsumed into a speculative mania.

Such periods have always resolved themselves with the extinguishing of these excess claims (deleveraging), which, being a contraction in the supply of money and credit relative to available goods and services, is deflation by definition. Investors wake up to the fact that asset price appreciation is over and that there is nowhere near enough collateral to back all the outstanding debt. The great grab for over-subscribed collateral begins. The resulting free-for-all picks up momentum as it proceeds and does not play out as a slow squeeze. The effective money supply collapses, and the impact of this is compounded by a very large fall in the velocity of money, leading into an economic seizure, or period of Great Depression. Prices follow the money supply to the downside, as speculation goes into reverse.

Naturally, such a period would be characterized by very weak demand for a long period of time. Economic activity would be greatly reduced, and a lack of purchasing power, thanks to monetary collapse, would leave money, not energy, as the limiting factor, probably for several years. While energy is the primary driver of expansion, finance is the primary driver of contraction, as the time constant for changes in finance is simply much shorter than for changes in supply or demand in the real economy. Finance is the operating system. When that crashes, resource availability becomes temporarily secondary.

One only has to look at the Great Depression of the 1930s to see the effect of a bursting credit bubble, even in the midst of plentiful resources. As the people who lived through it at the time said, they had plenty of everything except money. Our bubble will follow the same pattern, but as it is very much larger than the bubble of the Roaring Twenties, we can also expect the aftermath to be much larger. Resource limitations will bite in the end of course, but financial crisis extends the timeframe (at the price of making it worse later by sucking investment out of the sector for years, thereby setting us up for a later supply crunch).

Into 2008, increasing liquidity had been driving up asset prices across the board. A combination of liquidity and the perception of imminent scarcity led commodity prices to be bid up greatly in excess of what the fundamentals would justify at the time. The story of oil in 2008 is one of exaggerated boom leading to exaggerated bust as liquidity was rapidly evaporating, and the perception of scarcity became a perception of relative glut. The price collapse on speculative reversal (78% in five months) had very little to do with actual supply and demand, neither of which change so quickly. Financial crisis was clearly in the driving seat. At TAE we pointed out, as oil was reaching for the sky in early 2008, that the price would peak and then crash. Anticipating trend changes is a large part of what we do.

The resurgence of confidence, and therefore liquidity, from 2009 led to the beginning of the second price cycle of boom and bust. I was arguing in my 2010 ASPO talk, that oil would not regain the 2008 peak, but that price would once again overshoot the fundamentals on a perception of scarcity, and we would thereafter see prices fall again, probably to below the 2008/09 bottom - in other words to a level at or below that of the lowest price producer.

When Mr Rubin was asked his opinion of my ASPO lecture at our shared podium, his response was to call my boom and bust model “a bastardized form of monetarism that could only have been derived by a non-economist”. The audience was encouraged to laugh at the concept. I was not given an opportunity to respond at the conference, so I posted my thoughts at TAE and expressed them to Jim Puplava at Financial Sense Newshour. I posed a rhetorical question to Jim, asking if, given the generally dismal predictive abilities of economists, non-economists could possibly do any worse.

If we fast-forward to 2012, we find ourselves in the thick of a sovereign debt crisis in Europe, substantial deleveraging, spreading financial contagion, ineffective bailouts, widening credit spreads, tightening credit availability, deepening financial scandal and falling oil prices. It is absolutely clear that finance is in the driving seat once again.

Rubin acknowledges that his price forecast has not been realized, but he continues to argue, as he did in 2008, that high oil prices are causing the financial crisis.

Whatever happened to $200 oil?

If a mea culpa is in order, its roots can be found in the decision to underplay the demand side of the equation. Oil prices plunged to $40 a barrel after economic growth collapsed, taking global oil demand along for the ride. And that same movie is about to play out again. Recessions are already rolling across Europe. Economic growth in North America is lackluster, at best. Meanwhile, the spectre of sovereign debt defaults in the euro zone continues to hang over global financial markets. Added up, it spells another sharp drop for oil prices not because fuel is abundant, but because once again the world can’t afford to stay out of a recession. What happened to my forecast for $200 oil? Quite simply, the end of growth.


The inexorable build up to financial crisis has been measured in decades, with a smooth exponential rise in the money supply (i.e. inflationary credit expansion) in the post WWII period, while oil prices have been all over the map in that time. Did oil cause Europe to introduce a single currency with a highly flawed architecture for instance? Or cause a long period of negative real interest rates to bait a debt trap (leading, among other things, to huge housing bubbles)? Or allow banking to be deregulated so it could become too big to fail? I think not, at least not directly.

Energy is not the sole driver of events, at least not in the highly simplistic manner Mr Rubin suggests. Energy and human systems interact in far more complex and non-linear ways. Time constants for different kinds of change vary. Sometimes one factor is the key driver and sometimes it is another. The role of finance as a driver clearly cannot be ignored. Operating systems can take on a life of their own, in the sense that their own internal dynamics become a major factor in their own right.

Underplaying the demand side of the equation was indeed an error, but not in the sense that Mr Rubin mentions. The change in demand in 2008 was nowhere near large enough or rapid enough to trigger the price collapse at that time.

The crisis was entirely predictable to those who understand ponzi dynamics, however. Major bubbles act to bring demand forward during the expansion phase, at the expense of crashing it thereafter. In the last three decades of catabolic ponzi growth, we have probably burned our way through a century of demand. Leverage allowed us to borrow from the future, but deleveraging is now going to crash demand and asset prices.

In the case of oil, the effects of phase II of the financial crisis, and the coming demand crash, on oil prices will be exacerbated by a major shift in the perception of supply - from scarcity to glut, as a result of the unconventional oil fantasy. We covered this additional aspect in detail here at TAE not long ago in Unconventional Oil is NOT a Game Changer and in Peak Oil: A Dialogue With George Monbiot.

As we pointed out, unconventional fossil fuels and other low EROEI energy sources are caught in a paradox - they are unable to sustain a society complex enough to produce them. The additional supply will be minor and temporary, but the perception that we are suddenly swimming in oil will act to undermine oil prices further, to the point where such sources rapidly become uneconomic, which is exactly what we have already seen in natural gas.

Mr Rubin’s $225 price prediction for 2012 will be looking far more off-base in the relatively near future than it does today. If we do see that kind of price in the future, it will have to wait for the peak of the third boom and bust cycle, which likely will not even begin for several years (once massive deleveraging has run its course).

Mr Rubin’s view of the future remains at highly odds with our view here at TAE, although he has in some ways moved closer to our position. His view of energy driving finance suggests that once oil prices have fallen far enough, the economy will recover, until demand pushes up price once again and the cycle repeats. We, on the other hand, see no prospect of demand recovering for years, despite what should turn out to be historically low oil prices in nominal terms. Financial crisis is the driver, and will continue to be so for a long time.

Jeff Rubin has recently written a second book, in which he maintains that a lack of economic growth will be good for the environment, and that it will lead to a stable non-growing economy. To put it mildly, this is not our view at TAE. There is no such thing as a stable, non-growing society.

Stasis simply does not exist. It is not a mere lack of growth we are facing, but a very strong and prolonged period of economic contraction, as the demand borrowed from the future during the expansion years must be repaid. To say that this would be good for society or the environment is a bit of a stretch. True, we will emit less CO2, but financial crisis invites and entrenches escalating conflict, which is exceptionally hard on both the environment and society. Mr Rubin still appears to have little idea what we are truly facing in the coming years.

I find myself inclined to agree with the late 2010 assessment of Mr Rubin by Dan Gardner for the Ottawa Citizen:

Jeff Rubin is a guru you shouldn’t listen to

Jeff Rubin is an almost eerily perfect example of the sort of expert people should not listen to — but do anyway.

The foundation of Rubin’s fame is a correct call he made a decade ago. At the time, oil prices were low and stable. Most experts were sure they would stay that way. But Rubin became convinced the world was approaching “peak oil” — the point at which oil production would cease to grow and the price of oil would soar.

As Rubin predicted, oil prices started to climb in 2003. Up and up they went, to previously unimaginable highs. In the first half of 2008, oil topped $140 a barrel. Rubin and the few others who called the surge became media darlings.

... In November 2008, Rubin told a reporter that high oil prices killed the economy. Of course, this was well after the crash of the financial system, the global economy and the price of oil. I can find no record of him saying this beforehand.

The story he has told since then about oil prices yo-yoing the economy is — whether correct or not — an explanation he came up with only after the fact.

Not that any of this has humbled Rubin. Throughout 2009 and 2010, he forecast the return of triple-digit oil prices. It didn’t happen. But these flops, too, made no difference to Rubin’s confidence. He is as sure of himself as ever. And just as persuasive. How could he not be? He is supremely confident. He has a simple analytical story. And he is a superb communicator, in print and in person.

This is the stuff that satisfies the psychology of the audience. It is the stuff of which gurus are made.

Unfortunately, seminal research by University of California psychologist Philip Tetlock shows it is precisely this sort of expert whose predictions are most likely to fail.

Caveat emptor.


 

Posted: 10 months ago by TheTrivium4TW #4448
Hi Ash,

Again, I'd argue they can do what they want, but their self interest is to consolidate and control - so of course that's what they do.

I'm 100% aligned with the TAE view of where this all goes (loss of liberty, societal asset stripping, be prepared to feed and drink yourself, the government won't help you, etc...).

The distinction I make is that it need not go that way out of necessity, but that it will go that way because the oligarchs want it to go that way. Basically, it is an academic discussion because the results we expect are basically identical.

The oligarchs have conditioned the people to believe that anyone who actually believes in the Constitution is a quack... if not a dangerous extremist. 99% of what we observe out of government is unConstitutional. A good portion of that is King Georgian. Come to think of it, was King George really that bad compared to what we have today - including the end game that cometh?

I guess I'm the weird guy for thinking that the people who control the money supply have criminally broken their own penalty-free law (it isn't even a law, got equal justice?) and lied about it for 25 years is news worthy of an article - or even a mention in the comments!

Especially when that is the ROOT CAUSE of the economic depression and collapse that awaits us.
Posted: 10 months ago by ashvin #4442
TheTrivium4TW wrote:
My entire point is that they could change the entire system should they simply decide to do so. You've erected an arbitrary constraint on them that need not exist and doesn't exist. They've already changed the entire system in which we operate several times over. if you think about it, I bet you can make a list of how the system was fundamentally changed since 2008.

...

That's where our paradigms part ways - they simply choose the system and the system forces certain actions... When it suits their needs, they change the system. They've already done it multiple times - TBTF, selective legalized securities fraud, Presidential assassination powers with zero oversight, government reaching inside your pants, etc...


But think about how the system is changed by them... it HAS to be towards more centralization of wealth, more consolidation of authority and more explicit repression. So, yes, they can change the system, but that change comes out of a necessity to maintain their grip on the levers of power, and it can only go in one general direction. For ex., Nixon unilaterally taking the US off of the international gold standard established by Breton Woods is a great example of elites changing the monetary system, but they really had no choice if their goal is to maintain socioeconomic complexity as well has their privileged roles in society (which it is). It's not like they could have switched to a silver standard, or back to a domestic gold standard, or anything they wanted to do.

I believe this general direction of centralization sows the seeds of its own destruction over time. That conclusion is based on a lot of factors, but I think a good way to think about it is in terms of natural ecosystems that go through similar adaptive cycles, i.e. phases of birth, growth, conservation and collapse.

theautomaticearth.com/Finance/fractal-adaptive-cycles-in-natural-and-human-systems.html

Please post a link where I can find the TAE article that exposes the Federal Reserve as black letter law criminally breaking Section 2A of the Federal Reserve Act. I want to send that link out to everyone on my mailing list.

We are going to get that link, right? For the record, I don't think that link exists, Ash - but I'm pretty darn excited about being proven wrong.


How about taking it one step further, and saying the FRA itself breaks the black letter law of the US Constitution, allegedly the most supreme law of the land:

Plutocracy Now

We could write stacks of books on the prevalence of money in politics and the swarms of lobbyists who descend on Washington every single week, and many people have, but it's simpler to just focus on the most egregious example of corruption. The most powerful, influential economic policy-making institution in the country, the Federal Reserve ("Fed"), is an unelected body that is completely unaccountable to the people. Well, let's back up and start with the fact that this institution's very existence is most likely unconstitutional. Here's why:


In terms of general debt-dollar and Fed tyranny across the world, though, I can also provide you with a boat load of links to articles I have written about that.

As to your point that different people have different goals and different ways to achieve them - I totally agree and respect everyone's wisdom and right to do as they see fit. I obviously enjoy TAE's overall approach immensely, hence, my participation here.

Sorry for ranting a bit on the main thread and taking too much space. Ilargi, thanks for the reminder to be more concise.


And it's great to have you here! At the end of the day, we are basically on the same page, just focusing on it from slightly different angles. Even between I, S and me, we take different approaches to the same issues, and then of course the differing backgrounds/perspectives of all the commenters, which I believe is a very good way to go about constructing the biggest possible picture.
Posted: 10 months ago by TheTrivium4TW #4435
ashvin wrote:
I disagree. They may have been instrumental in creating the system, but they can't simply change the most basic rules without changing the entire system.


My entire point is that they could change the entire system should they simply decide to do so. You've erected an arbitrary constraint on them that need not exist and doesn't exist. They've already changed the entire system in which we operate several times over. if you think about it, I bet you can make a list of how the system was fundamentally changed since 2008.

"Suck it in and cope, buddy. Suck it in and cope."
~Charlie Munger

ashvin wrote:
That means they are being forced in a certain direction in order to maintain their grip, i.e. more centralization/consolidation of wealth, more intervention/regulation of markets, more explicit handouts to the elite class, more extraction of wealth from workers/taxpayers and mid-level owners of assets, more police state repression, etc., basically - more complexity to maintain complexity. I believe that forced path will eventually lead them to a steep cliff somewhere, with nowhere left to go but down... way down.


That's where our paradigms part ways - they simply choose the system and the system forces certain actions... When it suits their needs, they change the system. They've already done it multiple times - TBTF, selective legalized securities fraud, Presidential assassination powers with zero oversight, government reaching inside your pants, etc...

ashvin wrote:
We've been over this too many times before... you are assuming that no one else knows about it because we don't write about it every chance we get. That's not true. We have written about it several times in the past


Please post a link where I can find the TAE article that exposes the Federal Reserve as black letter law criminally breaking Section 2A of the Federal Reserve Act. I want to send that link out to everyone on my mailing list.

We are going to get that link, right? For the record, I don't think that link exists, Ash - but I'm pretty darn excited about being proven wrong.

As to your point that different people have different goals and different ways to achieve them - I totally agree and respect everyone's wisdom and right to do as they see fit. I obviously enjoy TAE's overall approach immensely, hence, my participation here.

Sorry for ranting a bit on the main thread and taking too much space. Ilargi, thanks for the reminder to be more concise.
Posted: 10 months ago by ilargi #4432
William said:

"Is it a credit crisis or is it an oil crisis? Really if you look carefully it is much like a chicken and the egg concept. Banks lent out more than should based on plentiful oil."

Sorry William, but that's very simply very inaccurate. It's also a very typical mistake made by those - overly - focusing on energy.

The financial crisis was not caused by oil prices. That's not how it works. We always give the example of the Great Depression, when there was plenty of energy, resources, labor, but one thing was missing: money/credit.

Financial crises have their own inner dynamics, boom and bust. These develop independently of any external factors. We have had the greatest credit boom in history, and that will inevitably be followed by the greatest bust.

This boom and bust will have enormous consequences for energy availability, not the other way around.

It's simply not true that if we had more oil, we could keep up the economic growth rates based on the biggest credit bubble in history. It makes no sense to presume that more oil would somehow automatically allow us to leverage our economy from 100-1 to 200-1.
Posted: 10 months ago by snuffy #4431
A excellent analysis..[I had a 200 word post I just erased..by accident.ouch.]


This is what TAE is...solid brain food..

Bee good,or
Bee careful


snuffy
Posted: 10 months ago by John Day #4426
Lovely Stoneleigh!
This is another case of perfect clarity on your part.
I really liked the line about expansions being resource driven, and contractions being financially driven.
There will be no resource to drive an expansion after the coming 2 decades of "conflict", I fear.
Posted: 10 months ago by ashvin #4417
TheTrivium4TW wrote:

For example, they could mint $50 trillion debt free coins and hand them out to, equally, to every citizen in the country.


I disagree. They may have been instrumental in creating the system, but they can't simply change the most basic rules without changing the entire system. That means they are being forced in a certain direction in order to maintain their grip, i.e. more centralization/consolidation of wealth, more intervention/regulation of markets, more explicit handouts to the elite class, more extraction of wealth from workers/taxpayers and mid-level owners of assets, more police state repression, etc., basically - more complexity to maintain complexity. I believe that forced path will eventually lead them to a steep cliff somewhere, with nowhere left to go but down... way down.

Call it self censoring.

How does the evil system cause someone as gifted and good as Stoneleigh to self censor? Not just Stoneleigh, but Ilargi as well? Not just those to, BUT NEARLY EVERYONE! It is trivial to prove beyond all doubt and back... it is the root cause of the Greatest Depression... but it is, apparently, off limits.

Why? How? It isn't an accident... it benefits Big Finance Capital and it hurts the average citizen... will eventually murder 100s of millions, if not a billion people.

What causes a highly intelligent and compassionate law student bent towards social justice to just *accept* the criminality that ultimately will lead to the Greatest Depression human history has ever seen?

Because I'm livid about it - and it is awful lonely being livid because nobody else seems to be able to acknowledge the root cause, let alone give it a second thought.


We've been over this too many times before... you are assuming that no one else knows about it because we don't write about it every chance we get. That's not true. We have written about it several times in the past, but we also feel our time is better spent on a regular basis writing about different aspects of what's going on, including the ways in which the BFC is potentially losing control.

You are not lonely, Triv. As you well know, there are hordes of other people who have been saying what you're saying for many years now. It is actually a very common argument, and there is a lot of merit to it. The problem is when you assert that anyone not making this argument on a repeated basis is somehow missing the point and being duped by the BFC into not caring enough. Do you really think we don't know about the Fed, debt-dollar tyranny, fluoridation, academic/media corruption, and a million other related things?

It's not self-censorship. Speaking for myself, I have decided there's really no point parroting that same information over and over. Most people who read TAE are already aware of a lot of that stuff, and by focusing on it too much you miss the nuanced big picture that is actually unfolding this very moment. The elites have their tricks/tactics to not-so-subtly convince the masses of their own power/control over the direction of humanity, and we have ours to convince people that the elites are self-deluded and wrong - humanity can change it's ultimate destination, one person at a time.
Posted: 10 months ago by JoeP #4416
Ilargi wrote:
It's time to shorten your comments. And we've seen enough references to the ultimate history for now.


Triv,

I don't think your comments are too long - you should see how long some of Ashvin's fundy comments are at The Diner

...and there is absolutely no censorship there. You should make a visit:

www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/
Posted: 10 months ago by Hircus #4415
ashvin wrote:
I'm not saying that many of the current crises were not anticipated and/or planned by groups of elites, or, even more obviously, that they are benefiting from these crises in many different ways. But it seems very unrealistic and counter-productive to me when we assume these already powerful people and institutions are borderline omnipotent. Instead, I am confident that there will come a time when they are rendered nearly impotent,and how soon that time arrives is ultimately up to the rest of us.


I agree with you, Ashvin. And when that happens, it's the "emperor has no clothes" moment. And that's when everything TAE has been predicting will happen, possibly very fast, too.
Posted: 10 months ago by backwardsevolution #4414
Otto Matic - I totally agree with you. How could Stoneleigh have predicted the level of fraud and corruption, the accounting rule changes, LIBOR rigging, and on and on? Who could have foreseen this unprecedented intervention?

Viscount, on an intuitive level, you know she's right. If not for the intervention, she would have been right long ago.

Stoneleigh, another brilliant piece! Thank you.

"... his response was to call my boom and bust model “a bastardized form of monetarism that could only have been derived by a non-economist”. The audience was encouraged to laugh at the concept."

He pulls rank and laughs - what a jerk!
Posted: 10 months ago by ilargi #4413
Trivium

It's time to shorten your comments. And we've seen enough references to the ultimate history for now.
Posted: 10 months ago by TheTrivium4TW #4412
ashvin wrote:
So according to your BFC criminal cartel model, could the Owners simply maintain the status quo financial capitalist system for the next 5, 10, 20 years if they wanted to?


I don't see how they could - the reason being that the mathematical limits on the current system appear to be stretched to the limit. The point I'm trying to make is that "The Owners" are the reason this system exists in the first place and they understand the mechanics and use them to their advantage.

*If* they wanted to change the rules and, therefore, the mathematics of the system, they could - who would stop them? I believe the current system is operating exactly as they want it to, so why would they change it? They wouldn't. But that doesn't mean they could not change it. That's the distinction.

For example, they could mint $50 trillion debt free coins and hand them out to, equally, to every citizen in the country.

You do see how that 1) is possible and 2) would destroy the deflation / societal asset stripping argument, right? They won't do that - not because they can not do it, but because it doesn't serve their interests (which aren't the common person's interests).

ashvin wrote:
Could they keep the masses confident in the banking system, the international bond markets functioning smoothly, the mercantile countries exporting, the debtor nations consuming, etc.? If not, then we must necessarily place a limit on their power to produce specific outcomes.


All else being equal... of course. But it need not be equal. As mentioned above, they could mint $50 trillion in debt free coins and hand them out equally to everyone in the entire country or they could hand them out in proportion to the debt one was in... either way... it's a *game changer* compared to the status quo.

ashvin wrote:
I'm not saying that many of the current crises were not anticipated and/or planned by groups of elites, or, even more obviously, that they are benefiting from these crises in many different ways. But it seems very unrealistic and counter-productive to me when we assume these already powerful people and institutions are borderline omnipotent.


Ashvin, that's your interpretation, not mine. I do not think these people are omnipotent or even borderline so. However, they do have immense power and they have an agenda and the world continually moves in the direction of enriching them and increasing their power as it impoverishes everyone else and reduces everyone else's power.

Where, exactly, do you think that ends up?

ashvin wrote:
Instead, I am confident that there will come a time when they are rendered nearly impotent, and how soon that time arrives is ultimately up to the rest of us.


While I hope you are right, I'm nowhere near confident that you are right. As it stands now, the average person defends the oligarch systems of oppression and they likely won't "get it" until they are homeless and starving.

Is that too late to "get it?"

I hope not.

The problem, as I see it, is that people lack empathy and concern for others (and even themselves, ultimately, but they don't know it yet!) to take ACTION BEFORE THE HELLFIRE ACTUALLY BURNS THEMSELVES. IMHO, that's too late.

I highly recommend watching The Ultimate History Lesson with John Taylor Gatto (3 time NY state teacher of the year, skip the first 17 minutes or so if you are so inclined):



There are 5 parts, so keep clicking through.

In addition, I highly recommend you listen to the following audiobook:

Disciplined Minds
A Critical Look at Salaried Professionals and the Soul-battering System That Shapes Their Lives, by Jeff Schmidt (2000)

www.unwelcomeguests.net/Disciplined_Minds

I'm only through the first 6 chapters, but the information and viewpoint presented up to this point would be worth the entire book - I'm sure more goodness lies ahead.

I haven't listened yet, but next on my audiobook list is:

The Underground History of American Education
An Intimate Investigation into the Prison of Modern Schooling, by John Taylor Gatto (2001)

www.unwelcomeguests.net/The_Underground_History_of_American_Education

I don't have all the answers, but I do see the results of the system in which we live.

For example, I see a Federal Reserve System that has criminally broken its own statute for 25+ years running and lies about it to cover it up.

No media covers the crime biggest non World War crime event of human history - not even Stoneleigh will touch it. She's far to intelligent to deny it, though - it is simply off limits.

Call it self censoring.

How does the evil system cause someone as gifted and good as Stoneleigh to self censor? Not just Stoneleigh, but Ilargi as well? Not just those to, BUT NEARLY EVERYONE! It is trivial to prove beyond all doubt and back... it is the root cause of the Greatest Depression... but it is, apparently, off limits.

Why? How? It isn't an accident... it benefits Big Finance Capital and it hurts the average citizen... will eventually murder 100s of millions, if not a billion people.

What causes a highly intelligent and compassionate law student bent towards social justice to just *accept* the criminality that ultimately will lead to the Greatest Depression human history has ever seen?

Because I'm livid about it - and it is awful lonely being livid because nobody else seems to be able to acknowledge the root cause, let alone give it a second thought.

As a process engineer, I know very well that if you don't address the *ROOT CAUSE*, you haven't fixed the problem.

The Rockefeller and Carnegie Foundations created teacher pensions - BUT ONLY IF THE TEACHERS TEACH THEIR CURRICULUM. Of course, they all line up to teach their curriculum - who doesn't want "free money?" The cost? Nobody bothers to ask - the money is flowing... the fraudulent gains of a debt based treasonous monetary system, that is.

The average MD doctor thinks putting toxic waste in the water is equivalent to "mother's milk" when the EPA scientists oppose it (few of them even know this, of course - the system is rigged) and point out that no solid research supports the practice and lots of research indicates it is detrimental to the health of the population.

WHY EPA HEADQUARTERS UNION OF SCIENTISTS OPPOSES FLUORIDATION

www.nteu280.org/Issues/Fluoride/NTEU280-Fluoride.htm

Do you, an intelligent, compassionate person, still slurp down your Big Finance Capital Central State sanctioned toxic brew (including lead, mercury, radioactive isotopes) without even knowing why?

It is linked to reduced IQ over long exposures... do you think Big Finance Capital benefits when older, experienced people lose their mental faculties and then have to surrender what little wealth they've accumulated to the Big Finance Capital sick care system to "care" for them?

I have no doubt that the manipulation and control of the system requires our consent... even if misguided... but how does it get our consent? How does it deceive otherwise bright people?

I don't know exactly, but I do know that it does.

So this crowd has incredible influence and power and the common person either can do nothing about it or believes they can't do anything so they don't even try... they give up and then the [D]elites have even more control over the system and use it to oppress even more people in ever diverse ways.

It is happening. Period.

PS - They feed you untested for human safety GMO "pesticide" food and you guys can't even muster the effort to speak out against that kind of corporate corruption... you just sit back and accept that others control your food supply and tell you that your ignorance is best... not being able to complain any more than a cow can complain about his food to the farmer.

They exert incredible control over people because no rational, free minded, independent person would every put up with that BS!

"A really efficient totalitarian state would be one in which the all-powerful executive [Big Finance Capital that sponsors politicians] of political bosses and their army of managers control a population of slaves who do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude. To make them love it is the task assigned, in present-day totalitarian states, to ministries of propaganda, newspaper editors and schoolteachers.... The greatest triumphs of propaganda have been accomplished, not by doing something, but by refraining from doing. Great is truth, but still greater, from a practical point of view, is silence about truth."
~Aldous Huxley (whose brother was a high up United Nation’s big wig and Big Finance Capital minion)
Posted: 10 months ago by draego454 #4407
>> Mr Rubin’s $225 price prediction for 2012 will be looking far more off-base in the relatively near future than it does today.

I'm sad when people who fundamentally understand and accept the concept of Peak Oil get wrapped around the axel on issues of timing. These days, isn't it rare enough to find someone who at least understands the problem, that we don't have to work the Us/Them angle on the quality of their timing predictions? And face it, Peak Oil as a discipline - all of us combined - have no ground to go around bragging about the timing predictions that we've given to society at large.

If someone even accepts that Peak Oil is a valid theory, then that's 90% of the battle for me. He could be worse - he could be a Yergin.

Steven in Dallas

PS: My new insult, "Don't be such a Yergin!"
Posted: 10 months ago by SergioI #4406
thanks Stoneleigh, lasts 3 posts have been very clear, It's the most convincing lookout for me of how things are going to role out. Cheers from Mexico, where elections just passed, all candidates where preaching on nonsense economic growth and society is wishful thinking that we have to continue growing in the sake of progress.
Posted: 10 months ago by bluebird #4405
Most everyone that I know, do not see the bright red flashing warning lights in the global economy. They have come to believe that the best way to create wealth is investing in the markets via dollar cost averaging. Also that while markets go down, they believe that over time, staying in the markets will increase one's wealth. A sister has told me that she refuses to get out of the markets because she will miss the gains when the markets go back up. This same sister couldn't believe my money was in a credit union that earns a pittance. She asked why I didn't put my money elsewhere. And I told her it was more important to preserve my principal rather than losing 50% when the markets go down. These people just don't get what's coming.

Edit - And a credit union, or even Treasury Bills, is for the short term. Long term there is nothing safe.
Posted: 10 months ago by stoneleigh #4403
Viscount St Albans,

I have no reason whatsoever to change my view of reality. Nothing I said hinges on the specifics of timing. I suggest you think about the implications of what I am predicting and prepare for a very different world rather than trying to game the system for a little extra profit. The prudent would be on the sidelines in cash already, and if they have their house in order early, so much the better for being able to sleep at night. We do not exist to make you money. If that is what you are looking for, feel free to look elsewhere.

Market timing is always probabilistic. Get over it.

We most certainly did see a rolling top. The trend change began in May 2011 and we have seen a series of tops in different markets since then.

Can you honestly not see the bright red flashing warning lights in the global economy? They are very clear to me.
Posted: 10 months ago by SteveB #4402
Viscount--the markets are illusory. Asking TAE (or Nicole in particular) to frame things within an illusion would help whom?

Taking that a step further (back), money--exchange, really--is illusory. Framing things within that illusion is the biggest lie we tell ourselves. (Of course, there's probably something about death that tops it.) It just happens to be the biggest picture frame most people can see. Daniel Quinn wrote of 'stepping back' to Mars in order to see humanity from the outside. It's a useful thought experiment.
Posted: 10 months ago by ashvin #4400
TheTrivium4TW wrote:

I do see where Stoneleigh can be perceived as being a bit arrogant. For example, I think her POV is exactly correct, even if for slightly different reasons. She'd argue mechanics of the system (which is correct), but I'd argue that her POV benefits the criminal banking cartel, which is more FUNDAMENTAL than the system because they could - and would - change the system to benefit themselves.

This leads me to believe that deflation is a criminal Big Finance Capital choice (leaving the current system in place instead of changing the system midstream) rather than what Stoneleigh argues is the necessary outcome (assuming the system remains the same).


So according to your BFC criminal cartel model, could the Owners simply maintain the status quo financial capitalist system for the next 5, 10, 20 years if they wanted to? Could they keep the masses confident in the banking system, the international bond markets functioning smoothly, the mercantile countries exporting, the debtor nations consuming, etc.? If not, then we must necessarily place a limit on their power to produce specific outcomes.

I'm not saying that many of the current crises were not anticipated and/or planned by groups of elites, or, even more obviously, that they are benefiting from these crises in many different ways. But it seems very unrealistic and counter-productive to me when we assume these already powerful people and institutions are borderline omnipotent. Instead, I am confident that there will come a time when they are rendered nearly impotent, and how soon that time arrives is ultimately up to the rest of us.
Posted: 10 months ago by ashvin #4399
Jerry McManus wrote:


Hey Jerry,

HTML tags have to in brackets rather than <> tags, i.e. [insert html here]
Posted: 10 months ago by Otto Matic #4397
First of all, The Market, as Max Keiser has shouted for years, is rigged.

It is Rigged Market Capitalism. Totally.

Anyone at this point who takes any number the equities' markets post at in the MSM whores are themselves not to be taken seriously.

The Dow and S&P reflect nothing but the Fed's pumping credit into 'the markets' through the back door.

Your precious quoted 'markets' are a Casino Gulag.

A friend sent me this:

"Charles Ponzi should get a posthumous Nobel Prize for Economics.

The world has been run on economic principles devised by him for many decades now.

He is far and away the most influential economic thinker."

Yoa Viscount, your touting 'markets' and numbers that are fake to the core is a sign of your cluelessness about the accuracy and 'truthiness' of the financial 'press'.

The 'market' is held up at the level it is currently at and at every point it's been at for years with Pure Fraud.

Spare us your reverence for 'market' level Faux Facts spewed out by Pressitutes, which you seems to be a Big Believer in.

Get over it, your Dow and S&P numbers are rigged worst than a Vegas casino and will disappear in an instant at the stoke of a key.

High frequency trading by front running Wall St banks, who having servers BETWEEN you and the trading floor of both Rigged Dow and S&P 'markets, account for 85%+ of all 'trades' of the two fake 'exchanges'.

You sound like you believe the 'numbers' in the same way as what James Kunstler refers to as “the Jiminy Cricket syndrome”—a childish belief that any outcome we want can be had just by wishing for it.

hahaha

Dream on baby!
Posted: 10 months ago by CJ in VT #4396
That was a lovely post, thank you.

I have a general comment that I hope you'll address at some point. The Transition Towns movement has linked peak oil, climate change, and financial collapse. There seem to be other ideas that mesh nicely with those:

Permaculture;
Low carb/paleo diet [how's that going Nicole? I'd love an update - I'm down 20lbs, halfway to my goal];
Aquaponics (the only topic TAE hasn't mentioned at all);
I'll tentatively add the Occupy Movement/Libertarians which have some interesting overlap.

So my questions are:
Am I missing anything? [I'm already off grid, raising animals, and so on]

Do these all fit together nicely because they deal with the end of growth [possibly linking the question to the post at hand]?

I'd create a thread but I'm not really sure what to call it. I think the new TAE site is trying address/link some of these but I'm not sure it's there yet.

There's a religious quality to these ideas - especially when the various "sects" argue over the details.
Posted: 10 months ago by william #4394
So I looked up this guy and did some considering and listening. I like some of what he is stating and parts of what he is thinking is true. It should be noted that the statement I found was (paraphrasing) oil will be $200 by 2012, if not it will be because the world is in a recession.

Is it a credit crisis or is it an oil crisis? Really if you look carefully it is much like a chicken and the egg concept. Banks lent out more than should based on plentiful oil. So I am not sure anyone can separate which is the driving force because they seem to work in sync. If things get bad oil drops in price quickly. If oil goes up in price things get bad.

Clearly he is off in thinking capitalism will become ecological minded with carbon credits. I am seeing more clearly what carbon credits are - they are a superficial front to keep going towards destructive development and are currently ultimately failing today.
Posted: 10 months ago by gurusid #4392
Hi Folks,

Of course it all depends how you cut the cake. It might be a case that instead of right and wrong, we might have neither right nor wrong.

In terms of simplifying what could be loosely called a systemic approach, we have three major systems in play here: the economic (in terms of money); the energetic; and the environmental (resources/pollution - input/output). as Ayers and Warr have pointed out, there seems to be a strong 'correlation' (note correlation does not equal cause) between the amount of 'physical work' extracted from energy and economic growth. That the amount of available energy has for the last three hundred or so years been increasing cannot be denied. This has allowed the correlating (again correlation does not imply cause) extraction of resources from a finite environment. One of the biggest and key resources is the source of 'physical work' - fossil fuels. Regardless of cause or effect there will be a strong correlation between 'physical work done' and economic growth/energy used. Whether it is the body economic ageing and dying hence using less energy or that it is the body economic being starved of energy and hence dying can be argued to infinity, as IMHO the 'causative' elements are too complex and chaotic to be discerned. All we have is 'correlation'. Yes depressions have happened before and we are it appears also in a deflationary period. But what is unique NOW (and few realise?) is that we are in a 'correlating' age of resource depletion; not just in terms of energy but many other vital resources such as soil and water.

Add to this the final 'correlated dynamic' of continued increase in human population and we do indeed find ourselves in 'interesting times'.

BTW, 'guru' in my pseudonym of 'gurusid' is an acronym: gee (g) you (u) are (r) you(u) sid - many meanings on many forums but here perhaps the most pertinent is the 1980's uk ad for 'gas shares' (privatisation of former state owned British Gas) "...if you see sid tell him".

Besides pundit is the term I think your looking for, in sanskrit the term guru is given to one who is a spiritual teacher and has 'experience'; and pundit to one who has studied and has 'learning'. The western usurpation of the term 'guru' to designate 'celebrity' (charismatic or otherwise) is I think left better defined by the latter... a true guru is anything but.

L,
Sid.
Posted: 10 months ago by davefairtex #4391
skipbreakfast -

Thats a great perspective. Really what we're talking about is essentially trying to assess the probability of a black swan. Well not a black swan per se, but the probability of a large step-change in the pricing of assets vs currency. In some sense, the market is in one of three states:
* around 100 SPX after a deflationary collapse
* in a "normal" range from 800-1400
* hyperinflationary, over 10,000

Stating the SPX level isn't about predicting a particular price, but more about giving people a rough sense as to what the world will look like after such an event occurs. Of course if the event doesn't occur, neither will the step-change in asset pricing.

Rubin is also talking about a step-change in asset pricing of oil, namely, a move from BAU to the global acknowledgement of a permanent decline in oil production and all the implications of that. To date, neither events have occurred, and so no step-changes in asset prices have happened yet, and so as a result everyone looks a little silly.

For those of us who aren't as certain about the eventual outcome, its helpful in terms of reinforcing belief (and convincing our relatives to build those Arks) to understand the factors involved in assessing the near term chances of this happening - IOW measuring the current level of pressure on the system and which way things seem to be leaning.

Another way of looking at this is: you've decided to cross the Atlantic to New York in 1912 with your Mom. Do you take action (and alarm your Mom) when:
* you read in the papers that they think the Titanic is unsinkable
* once onboard, you realize there aren't as many lifeboats as there are passengers
* you notice the ship is steaming into an ice field at 20 kts at nighttime
* you feel a bump at night and the ship stops
* the crew asserts that all is well and tells you to go back to your cabin
* you see a few lifeboats are launched "as a precaution" but only half-full because its COLD out there (and Mom really doesn't like cold)
* you see people start seriously running for the lifeboats
* you notice the ship starting to settle
* you are swimming!
Posted: 10 months ago by skipbreakfast #4390
Given the massive, unprecedented scale of the asset-price collapse that is coming, the ONLY prediction that is important is the one that gets you out of harm's way. Staying in the markets to game another year or three of asset-price gains is playing Russian roulette with a nuclear warhead. The downside is far too great. If TAE was all about how to turn a profit in the markets, it might be open to this criticism, because timing would be important to profits. But I've never seen TAE claim to offer a route to riches or profits, only capital protection. The crux of TAE's prediction is about crippling deflation, even when nearly no one else was in agreement. As such, TAE is only wrong if the asset-deflation doesn't arrive.

Seriously, I'm not making excuses for anyone, but 24 or 36 or even 60 months of being off on the precise timing of a certain level of a stock index is nothing compared to the magnitude of what is really being predicted--that the entire index is at risk of dropping off a cliff. It's so big, there is currently no risk worth taking unless you can afford to lose EVERYTHING. And most people clearly cannot. So TAE has said get out NOW, whether "now" was three years ago or one year hence. I continue to believe that for most people, that is the right advice. If you want to play the ups and downs in the markets in the near-term, good luck to you. You'll need it.

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