By A Web Design


Welcome, Guest
Username Password: Remember me
  • Page:
  • 1

TOPIC: The Global Demise of Pension Plans

The Global Demise of Pension Plans 9 months ago #4966

We have been saying for a long time that anyone in the western world who's 10-15 years away from collecting their first pension payments, shouldn't expect to get much, if anything, when the time comes. This is because, obviously, the economy has deteriorated as much as it has. It's also because, in essence, pensions plans are the ultimate Ponzi schemes.

What doesn't help are the central bank and government policies that are in fashion today that are based on pushing interest rates about as low as they can get.

The reactions to all this are interesting in their range of variation. Last week I picked up an article (more on that later) that made me refer back to a series of bookmarks I had made over the past month or so. Here are a few quotes that, when put together, paint the picture pretty accurately; you add up the details and numbers and you get an idea of what's going on. Not necessarily for the faint of heart. First, Michael Aneiro for Barron's:


Top Pension Fund Sends a Warning

The California Public Employees' Retirement System, the nation's biggest public pension fund at $233 billion, reported a mere 1% return on its investments in its fiscal year ended June 30. Earlier this year, in an attempted acknowledgment of today's realities, Calpers had lowered its discount rate–an actuarial figure determining the amount that must be invested now to meet future payout needs—for the first time in a decade, to 7.5% from 7.75%. That represents combined assumptions of a 2.75% rate of inflation and a 4.75% rate of return.

Needless to say, a 1% annual return didn't come close to hitting any of those figures and doesn't engender confidence in the assumptions of institutional or individual investors alike. Calpers was quick to note that its 20-year investment return is still 7.7% and that the past year was challenging for everyone. But Calpers is a bellwether, and other systems are expected to report similarly disappointing returns, necessitating higher annual contributions in the years ahead to meet funding needs.

Later in the week, S&P Dow Jones Indices said that the underfunding of S&P 500 companies' defined-benefit pensions had reached a record $354.7 billion at the end of 2011, more than $100 billion above 2010's deficit. The organization reported that funding levels at the end of 2011 ran around 75%, on average, and that future contributions will constitute a "material expense" for many companies.

Fitch Ratings later released its own study of 230 U.S. companies with defined-benefit pension plans and found that median funding had dropped to 74.4% in 2011 from 78.5% in 2010, and that corporate pension assets grew just 2.9% in 2011 amid sluggish returns and a 6% decline in contributions.


This is not pretty. What we see is hugely unrealistic annual return assumptions combined with equally huge underfunding. Both ends burning. More from Marc Lifsher at the Los Angeles Times:


Pension funds seriously underfunded, studies find

Corporate and public pension funds across the country are seriously underfunded, threatening the retirement security of workers and straining the financial health of state and local governments, according to a pair of independent studies.

In 2011, company pensions and related benefits were underfunded by an estimated $578 billion, meaning they only had 70.5% of the money needed to meet retirement obligations, according to a report by S&P Dow Jones Indices.

Funds generally don't need to have all the money needed pay future pensions because returns on investments vary over the years and people retire at different ages and with different levels of benefits, experts said. But a funding level in the 70% zone is considered dangerously low.

The looming shortfall, and the move by corporations to 401(k)-type plans in which the level of investment is controlled by employees, could keep many aging baby boomers from retiring, said Howard Silverblatt, a senior S&P Dow Jones Indices analyst and the report's author.

"The American dream of a golden retirement for baby boomers is quickly dissipating," Silverblatt said. "Plans have been reduced and the burden shifted with future retirees needing to save more for their retirement.

"For many baby boomers it may already be too late to safely build up assets, outside of working longer or living more frugally in retirement."

While the cost of retirement is out of reach for many older workers and growing more expensive for younger ones, it's becoming less of a burden for employers, according to the report issued Tuesday.

Employers are paying less into pension funds despite the fact that company cash levels remain near record highs and cash flows are at an all-time high," Silverblatt said.

Meanwhile in the public sector, a separate pension-related report by the national State Budget Crisis Task Force warned that public pension funds in the U.S. are underfunded by $1 trillion to $3 trillion, depending on who's making the estimate.


There's no consensus on the amount by which pensions funds are underfunded. According to Reuters' Jilian Mincer, the funding shortfall may be as high as $4.6 trillion (2011 numbers).


Public pension funds to face calls to set realistic targets

Public pension funds are expected to report poor annual returns in the coming weeks, results that are likely to increase calls for more realistic retirement promises for teachers, police officers and other public workers.

At least three of the nation's largest U.S. public pension funds have already announced returns of between 1% and 1.8%, far below the 8% that large funds have typically targeted.

The fund's targets have been "unrealistic," said Michael Lewitt, a portfolio manager at Cumberland Advisors in Sarasota, Florida. "They've been fooling themselves because there is no realistic case they can make that." [..]

Low returns will further aggravate funding shortfalls for hundreds of pension plans, adding to pressure on cities, counties and states that are already facing lower tax revenue and rising costs.


The vast majority of states have cut pension benefits or increased contributions from workers, or are trying to.

"Failing to understand the scope of the pension crisis sets taxpayers up for a bigger catastrophe in the future," said Bob Williams, president of free-market think-tank State Budget Solutions, in Washington. "Without government action, states, counties, cities and towns all over America will go bankrupt," he said. [..]

Major public pensions typically assume an average return of about 8%, but the median annual return in 2011 for large pension funds was roughly half that amount, 4.4%, according to data provided to Reuters by Callan Associates.

Median returns were only 3.2% for the last five years and 6% for the last 10. Before the 2007-09 recession, market performance was often above the 8% assumptions. Average returns for the last 20 or 25 years as a whole still reach that level. But with losses in 2008 and 2009 and uneven returns since then, analysts say pension funds should adjust to what seems to be a new reality. [..]


The funding status of public pensions has dramatically slipped over the last decade. Barely more than half were fully funded in 2010. At the end of that year, the gap between public sector assets and retirement obligations had grown to $766 billion, according to a report by the Pew Center on the States.

Ratings agency Moody's Investors Service calculated this month that if it used a 5.5% discount rate, a rate closer to the way private corporations value their pensions, it "would nearly triple fiscal 2010 reported actuarial accrued liability" for the 50 states and rated local governments to $2.2 trillion.

Other estimates put the shortfall even higher. State Budget Solutions estimated it in a recent study at $4.6 trillion as of 2011.


In San Francisco, they don't mince words, writes Heather Knight at SFGate:


More bad news for San Francisco’s city pension fund

A preliminary report of how the city’s pension fund performed in the fiscal year 2011-12, which ended June 30, shows it earned a meager 1.6% — far below the assumed rate of return of 7.5%. For a fund currently worth $15.3 billion, that’s a big difference.

"This is even worse than anyone predicted," said Public Defender Jeff Adachi, who offered a competing, failed pension reform measure that would have raised more money through employee contributions. "If this was a movie, it would be a disaster movie called ‘Pension Armageddon.’"


Canada, which faces similar problems ("massive shortfalls"), despite an ostensibly far better performing economy (how on earth does that add up?), apparently takes a somewhat different approach than the US, where, essentially, the favorite approach is moving the goalposts, which "lets companies use a 25-year average of the discount rate rather than two years".

You don't have to be a genius to see that the - financial - world was a totally different place 25 years ago than it is today. So using 25 year old stats to calculate today's required pension funding rates is a highly risky affair. If you find two years too short a period, you can go for 5 years, perhaps, I can see an argument being made for that. But 25? That looks like a desperate attempt at a cover-up more than a serious effort to find accurate accountancy methods.

Well, Canada resists such desperation. So far, at least, and despite strong opposition, that wants a sweet deal like the US gets. Louise Egan and Susan Taylor for Reuters:


Ottawa shrugs off pleas for pension fund relief amid massive shortfalls

Canada is taking a different tack than Washington on the thorny issue of helping companies fund their widening pension gaps, shrugging off corporate pleas for relief even as the United States lets businesses slash their contributions.

A frightening prospect for workers, retirees and companies, yawning pension deficits have gone from arcane accounting entries to front page news on fears that massive shortfalls could even cause some corporations to fail.

As a growing number of employers look to roll back benefits to the alarm of unions, others are pouring cash into their pensions funds only to see the hole get deeper.

Canada is not unique, and as in the United States, generous public sector pensions are a hot-button issue. But the federal government is taking a more hands-off stance than U.S. President Barack Obama, who signed a bill last month that changes how companies calculate what they must contribute to their pension funds, effectively allowing them to pay less.[..]

Softening the rules implies letting plans stay underfunded for longer, a risk financially prudent Ottawa may be reluctant to accept. After all, the country’s conservative banking culture helped it survive the global financial crisis better than most.

As in other countries, the scope of the Canadian problem is huge. 90% of the roughly 400 defined-benefit pension plans overseen by Canada’s federal regulator are underfunded, meaning they cannot meet their liabilities should their plans be wound up today, as is required by law. [..]


Historically, Canada has preferred relief measures such as lengthening amortization periods. Permanent rule changes in 2010 let companies average their solvency ratios over a three-year period instead of one, so that a sudden bad year doesn’t force them to make big cash infusions.

But some critics say it is dancing around the real problem – the very low "discount rate" used to assess a plan’s solvency, which is the focus of the recent measures in the U.S., Denmark and Sweden. This rate, based on long-term government bonds, helps actuaries judge how much assets will earn over time.

Companies complain the rate has never been lower and artificially inflates a plan’s deficit. The lower the discount rate, the bigger the deficit. Air Canada’s chief financial officer, Michael Rousseau, told analysts on a recent conference call that a 1.5% or 2% rise in the rate would eliminate more than $3-billion from the airline’s deficit.


That wishful thinking effectively became reality last month, not for Canadian companies but for their U.S. competitors. The new law there lets companies use a 25-year average of the discount rate rather than two years.

In Europe, Denmark and Sweden have tinkered with how the discount rate is used and the United Kingdom is thinking of following in their footsteps. [..]

Bob Farmer, who represents 250,000 pensioners as president of the Canadian Federation of Pensioners, says softer rules for companies mean bigger risks for workers. Tough luck about the low yields, he says. "That happens to be the world we’re living in." [..]

"The biggest social issue in the next 10 years is going to be pensions," said Rick Robertson, associate professor at the Richard Ivey School of Business, part of the University of Western Ontario. "What do I tell the 64-year-old person who may not have a chance to rebound if the company doesn’t succeed. Who’s my duty to? There’s no easy answer."


Whereas in Japan, with the world's fastest ageing population, the world's biggest pension fund has taken a dramatic route: selling off assets. It hopes to make up for this by moving into riskier assets. That's of course a big gamble no matter how you look at it. Monami Yui and Yumi Ikeda at Bloomberg:


World’s Biggest Pension Fund Sells JGBs To Cover Payouts

"Payouts are getting bigger than insurance revenue, so we need to sell Japanese government bonds to raise cash," said Takahiro Mitani, president of the Government Pension Investment Fund, which oversees 113.6 trillion yen ($1.45 trillion). "To boost returns, we may have to consider investing in new assets beyond conventional ones," he said in an interview in Tokyo yesterday.

Japan’s population is aging, and baby boomers born in the wake of World War II are beginning to reach 65 and become eligible for pensions. That’s putting GPIF under pressure to sell JGBs to cover the increase in payouts. The fund needs to raise about 8.87 trillion yen this fiscal year, Mitani said in an interview in April. As part of its effort to diversify assets and generate higher returns, GPIF recently started investing in emerging market stocks.


Now, remember that the level of funding for US public pension plans has fallen as low as 70% or thereabouts. And that brings me to the article from last week which made me return to the pension topic.

In the Netherlands, pension funds are by law required to maintain a 105% funding level. And there is little enthusiasm for changing this. Right after the autumn 2008 crisis peak, some leeway was provided by the government, but only for a short period. Now, there are other steps being taken:


Civil service pension fund ABP may cut pay outs by up to 15%

One of the biggest pension funds in the world, the Dutch civil service fund ABP, may have to cut pensions next year and again in two years time in order to keep its finances in order, the Volkskrant reports on Wednesday.

The paper bases its claim on confidential documents from the pension fund, which covers some three million workers and pensioners.

The current method of calculating pension funds’ coverage ratio - the amount of assets needed to meet pension obligations - could mean ‘reductions mount up to between 10% and 15%’, the document states.

The fund has already agreed to cut pensions by 0.5% next year. However, talks are under way between ministers and the central bank on changing the way interest rates used to determine the coverage ratio is calculated.

The document also states that if nothing is done to change the calculations, premiums for 17 big funds could rise by 28.5%.

Hundreds of thousands of pensioners are likely to get smaller pay-outs next year because pension funds have been hit by lower interest rates and the economic downturn.


There is no need to explain how tough it will be for many people to see 15% cut off their fixed income. And that will be just the beginning. Some pensions plans may temporarily do better if and when they're allowed to invest in risk(ier) assets, but just as many will do worse for that exact same reason. Changing coverage ratio calculations is not a magic wand; it's just another layer of creative accounting, and we've already got plenty of that.

For younger generations, which over a broad range have lower income jobs, if they have any, seeing pension plan premiums rise 28%, and then some more and so on, will become unacceptable, fast. They will soon figure out that the chances they will ever get any pension decades from now are close to zero. So they’ll ask themselves why they should pay any premiums, from the pretty dismal wages they make in the first place.

Over the next few years, this is a battle that will play out in our societies, and it will have no winners. We need to be very careful not to let it tear those societies apart. In a world where just about everyone has to settle for much less than they have or thought they would have, that will not be easy. Realistic accounting standards would be a good first step, but they will also be very painful. It will be very tempting to hide reality for as long as we can, in the same way we already do with issues ranging from Greece to real estate prices to bank losses to derivatives to our own personal debts.

The best, or even only, advice for those of us who belong to younger generations is: don't count on getting a pension when you reach retirement age. It’ll probably have been moved to age 85 or over by the time you get there anyway.

This is not something that can or will be fixed overnight. It was doomed from the moment baby boomers started producing the number of children they have. It simply hasn't been enough to keep the pension Ponzi going. And those baby boomers, with far too few children to provide for their pensions, have only just started to retire now, as the plans are already in such disarray. I'm sure you can see where this will lead.


 

Read More...

Re: The Global Demise of Pension Plans 9 months ago #4967

  • jal
  • OFFLINE
  • Gold Boarder
  • Posts: 306
  • Karma: 12
No easy answers for the pension plans

... cut monthly pensions benefits
... increase monthly premiums
... invest in risky assets
... increase the age that they can get the pension benefits
... decrease the number of years that they will get the benefits
... eliminate the number of people getting pension benefits.

The Global Demise of Pension Plans 9 months ago #4968

I have a solution - have *more* children. See, in China it is working...

Re: The Global Demise of Pension Plans 9 months ago #4969

  • buddha
  • OFFLINE
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Posts: 7
  • Karma: 0
This topic is very important to me b/c I plan to retire within a year. Obviously, I want to chose the best retirement option....monthly pension or lump sum payout. I even asked the author of this article for advice...of course I know he can't provide financial advice....worth a shot anyway.

Something Nicole said during one of her presentations keeps reverberating through my brain: She said that once retirees understand these large pension funds like CALPERS are under-funded and the retirees all begin to take the lump-sum option....then the pension fund managers will have to bar the door. I think the message is get out while you still can.....Paul

The Global Demise of Pension Plans 9 months ago #4970

  • seychelles
  • OFFLINE
  • Junior Boarder
  • Posts: 29
  • Karma: 1
Long-term life insurance faces similar problems. Pensions and other security blanket "investments" will be pillars of default and saved capital destruction. Their failed promises will be catalysts for active social unrest. It is critical at this stage of the implosion to wrest any saved after-tax capital from the hands of "trustees" who can legally steal from you (think MF Global) or the banking system (think hyperhypothecation of your assets held in "street" name or crony-capital banks that have legally inserted their derivative European debt assets ahead of your savings in the FDIC pecking order) or the US Government, which will eventually in the name of national security/ protection of its future taxes, force you legally to invest your savings in undesirable debt instruments that no one else will buy. Live frugally, get liquid, get tangible and do your best to have some social and capital firepower if you are lucky enough to come out on the other side. Opportunities for proactive structuring are fading away rapidly.

The Global Demise of Pension Plans 9 months ago #4971

  • Brian
  • OFFLINE
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Posts: 1
  • Karma: 0
As someone who had hoped to retire in 10-15 years, and on the New York Public Employees pension fund, I have never really expected that it still will be there then, or that Social Security will be there, either. However, reading this (arctic-news.blogspot.com/p/global-extinction-within-one-human.html), I have to say, what difference does any of this make?

I had rather hoped to see the hurricane hit Tampa and blow the RNC and all its foul excretions into the ocean - if anyone needed any further proof that Republicans are insane, the fact that they planned their big event in FLORIDA in AUGUST should settle any doubt. But even the prospect of a Romney-Ryan dictatorship is put in perspective by that Arctic News analysis.

So frankly, I think I'll spend my remaining time smelling the flowers, as long as they last.

The Global Demise of Pension Plans 9 months ago #4973

buddha - it's all going to let go with a bang - you're standing next to a lifeboat on the Titanic. It's small, it's chilly, but you will survive ... if you get clear of the suction of the sinking vessel.

The Global Demise of Pension Plans 9 months ago #4974

**Canada, which faces similar problems ("massive shortfalls"), despite an ostensibly far better performing economy (how on earth does that add up?)**

When I talk with Canadians there is almost a blushing when they remark how "resilient" their economy is in todays world. They seem to not realize their personal debt is increasing at record levels and there are articles out of Canada written about the "Alarming Canadian debt levels". It really shouldn't take a genius to figure out Canada is in a "credit bubble". But I will let you in on a little secret, maybe even a joke being played on Americans(again): Canadians have been opening up credit cards at U.S. retailers like Home Depot, Lowes, JC Penneys, Macy's, Kohls and anywhere they are welcomed to do it. Canada can only measure debt in Canada but the aggregate debt is mind blowing. Now when the defaults start coming who is going to eat the bad Canadian debt in the U.S.??? LOLOLOLOL who else - the taxpayers!!! Again the patsy taxpayer will cough up the losses (billions) as retailers count their profits. America found a new way to increase it's "consumer eCONomy" as it's denizens are down for the count!!!
See all the cranes in Toronto???? good luck with that bubble too!

The Global Demise of Pension Plans 9 months ago #4975

  • ted
  • OFFLINE
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Posts: 16
  • Karma: 0
10-15 years? does that mean that we have that long before the crash....I don't see how pensions go more than five years.

Re: The Global Demise of Pension Plans 8 months, 4 weeks ago #4976

Ilargi said.....
"We have been saying for a long time that anyone in the western world who's 10-15 years away from collecting their first pension payments, shouldn't expect to get much, if anything, when the time comes."

@Ilargi and others....

A question about pension vaporization: 10-15 years ???

A decade strikes me as a particularly mellow time frame for the impacts of what you've been describing previously. I would have thought, from previous writing, that pensions would be effectively gone in a much shorter time than 10-15 years?

I would have imagined you'd say with 2-3 years....Or 5 years max. Is this 10-15 years a typo?
Last Edit: 8 months, 4 weeks ago by Viscount St. Albans.

Re: The Global Demise of Pension Plans 8 months, 4 weeks ago #4978

Nice article. It links in pretty well with the debt article you posted previously. That's because pension funds hold a great deal of debt. So debt (sovereign and otherwise) and what happens to it is very closely linked to the viability of pension funds.

Low bond rates = lowered pension fund viability.
Sovereign defaults/debt jubilee = destroyed pension fund capital.

Re: The Global Demise of Pension Plans 8 months, 4 weeks ago #4979

  • ilargi
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 142
  • Karma: 6
Sorry guys, but we simply don't have the same obsession with exact timing that some of you do. I don't find it all that important whether it's 10 to 12 or 5 to 12. What I find important is that the clock is ticking.

10-15 years is just me staying on the safe side of things. And besides, people are 5 years older than they were when we first started warning about this issue.

Not every pension plan will go down in the same way and at the same time. Some are huge, for one thing, and there is no clear pathway for depleting them, so chaos and diversity is ensured.

Re: The Global Demise of Pension Plans 8 months, 4 weeks ago #4980

  • ilargi
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 142
  • Karma: 6
Still, yes, even if your pension is just 5 years away instead of 10-15, you need to be seriously worried about it. But since just about everything we write and have written over time makes that clear, it doesn't need to be repeated every single day.

Re: The Global Demise of Pension Plans 8 months, 4 weeks ago #4982

Jim is 60 years old. Jim goes to the doctor for a checkup.

Doctor: Jim, I'm sorry, but I've got some bad news.

Jim: What is it Doc?

Doctor: Jim, you're going to die.

Jim: What ? When ???

Doctor: 5, 10, maybe 15 years. Stop obsessing about the timing.

Jim: Thanks Doc.

Re: The Global Demise of Pension Plans 8 months, 4 weeks ago #4983

  • jal
  • OFFLINE
  • Gold Boarder
  • Posts: 306
  • Karma: 12
Viscount St. Albans wrote:
Jim is 60 years old. Jim goes to the doctor for a checkup.

Doctor: Jim, I'm sorry, but I've got some bad news.

Jim: What is it Doc?

Doctor: Jim, you're going to die.

Jim: What ? When ???

Doctor: 5, 10, maybe 15 years. Stop obsessing about the timing.

Jim: Thanks Doc.


Doctor: In six months, You will forget everything I told you because you have dementia.

Re: The Global Demise of Pension Plans 8 months, 4 weeks ago #4984

  • ashvin
  • OFFLINE
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 442
  • Karma: 10
Brian wrote:
As someone who had hoped to retire in 10-15 years, and on the New York Public Employees pension fund, I have never really expected that it still will be there then, or that Social Security will be there, either. However, reading this (arctic-news.blogspot.com/p/global-extinction-within-one-human.html), I have to say, what difference does any of this make?


The abstract on that article seems scary enough, but I have no idea what to make of all the technical data analysis. Anyone here well-versed in this kind of stuff?

Malcolm wrote:
Abstract

Although the sudden high rate Arctic methane increase at Svalbard in late 2010 data set applies to only a short time interval, similar sudden methane concentration peaks also occur at Barrow point and the effects of a major methane build-up has been observed using all the major scientific observation systems. Giant fountains/torches/plumes of methane entering the atmosphere up to 1 km across have been seen on the East Siberian Shelf. This methane eruption data is so consistent and aerially extensive that when combined with methane gas warming potentials, Permian extinction event temperatures and methane lifetime data it paints a frightening picture of the beginning of the now uncontrollable global warming induced destabilization of the subsea Arctic methane hydrates on the shelf and slope which started in late 2010. This process of methane release will accelerate exponentially, release huge quantities of methane into the atmosphere and lead to the demise of all life on earth before the middle of this century.

The Global Demise of Pension Plans 8 months, 4 weeks ago #4985

Which one is not like the others?

A. Splish-splashing in your fancy new kayak with neon racing paddles at the top of Niagra Falls.

B. Pissing into the wind from the end of the harbor pier as a Category 5 spirals relentlessly closer.

C. Reclining in your Lazy-Boy as the mailman drops off the monthly pension check for the next 5 years, most-likely, and perhaps the next 10 to 15 years as well. You never know for sure.
----------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps I'm alone in my interpretation of TAE's underlying tone. But Yo-Yo barely begins to describe it.

Does Stoneleigh agree with this post about pensions?
What about Ash?
I'd imagine the answer is no. They don't agree. But it's easy enough to clarify. Can't somebody ask them?
Last Edit: 8 months, 4 weeks ago by Viscount St. Albans.

Re: The Global Demise of Pension Plans 8 months, 4 weeks ago #4986

The question of when a pension fund will (essentially) default is a really tough one to answer. Its similar to asking when a nation will experience a sovereign default, or leave the eurozone, or experience a bond auction failure. Near term, it is driven by the performance of the assets (debt & equities) within the fund. Longer term, its the economic performance of the entity providing the pension (i.e. car sales & profitability at GM, the State of Illinois sales & income tax collections, etc).

Another aspect is, is this a "core system" pension or is it peripheral? If its provided by the US DOD, odds are its the last thing to go. (Funny, the establishment always manages to pay the Army). If on the other hand its the State of Illinois...man, lump sum looks good.

You can get an early warning by asking your fund what's inside it, and then infrequently monitoring the performance of those assets. They will likely delay informing you about returns, so if you monitor it yourself, you'll have perhaps a one-year jump on the rest of the herd. Longer term, simply realizing that every time you hear bad news about the State of Illinois, you know that your pension situation is getting more precarious.

In some sense, its a big game of Who Moved My Cheese. You have to keep alert, sniff The Cheese frequently, and be quite clear that the fundamentals driving pension inputs and outflows will eventually affect you regardless of what the current law says. Everything will be fine right up until suddenly, they're not fine anymore.

If you have something you could be doing with the lump sum that would dramatically lower your living costs or cost-effectively making your life more resilient, you might consider doing that. For instance, paying off credit card debt, or even home mortgage debt are possibly reasonable uses for part of your lump sum. Paying off a mortgage currently at a 5% APR effectively gives you a tax-free and risk-free ROI of 5%, which is awfully hard to find these days, and likely better than a pension fund manager will do. Depends on the size of the house and where it's located, of course. Mom bought some solar panels for a price that effectively gave her power for 10 cents per kwh assuming a 10 year breakeven. Every kw generated after 10 years is free. So protection from power inflation costs, AND free power starting at year 10 up until the panels die.

Some might argue that things will totally collapse and so you shouldn't pay off anything, and instead take it out as cash and hide it under the mattress. Certainly if there is a deflationary crash and home prices drop by 75%, you can walk away from your existing mortgage, and buy another house with that cash for 1/4 the price. Heck, if you assess that as the "likely scenario", sell your current house now, take out the lump sum, put the cash in a box, rent and wait for the Earth-Shattering Kaboom!

Ultimately, you have to judge for yourself who will be a better steward of the money - you, or the pension fund manager. And that depends on who provides the pension, how many reasonable choices you see for your lump sum, and what you assess as the likely outcomes of our current predicament 5-10 years down the line.

While making choices yourself might be risky, delegation of choice to a pension fund manager (who has very limited choices, all of them tightly coupled with the current financial system) comes with risk also.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Viscount St. Albans

The Global Demise of Pension Plans 8 months, 4 weeks ago #4989

  • Variable81
  • OFFLINE
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Posts: 15
  • Karma: 1
Sent an email to the Automatic Earth crew hoping they could provide some advice around the topic of the demise of pensions, but figured I'd field those questions here in the comments section in hopes of getting a response...

1) At what point does it make sense to "cash out" and actually quit your job to protect (well, access - at least here in Ontario where you can take a payout of something in the neighbourhood of 50% of your pension funds, though taxed of course) your pension?

2) What kind of arguments would you use with loved ones to convince them their pensions are at risk? Logic doesn't seem to win most people over in my experience; emotion on the other hand...

3) And while this is a bit off-topic, does anyone have any opinion on using the vaulting services of security companies as a way to protect their wealth? Besides cash on hand, stocking up on hard goods & food supplies, and Treasury Direct I'm at a loss for places to try to hide my wealth for the coming storm.

Thanks!

Re: The Global Demise of Pension Plans 8 months, 4 weeks ago #4990

  • bluebird
  • OFFLINE
  • Expert Boarder
  • Posts: 88
  • Karma: 4
@Variable81 - It is a big dilemna. What makes sense for 1 person may not be so good for another. And no matter what you decide, it is nearly impossible to discuss it with others who have not yet awakened. Also, try reading thru comments on this thread for additional info...

theautomaticearth.com/Finance/bubbles-and-the-titanic-betrayal-of-public-trust.html

The Global Demise of Pension Plans 8 months, 4 weeks ago #4994

  • Mark T
  • OFFLINE
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Posts: 13
  • Karma: 0

The Global Demise of Pension Plans 8 months, 3 weeks ago #4999

  • william
  • OFFLINE
  • Senior Boarder
  • Posts: 55
  • Karma: 0
I sense a pattern.

The system can't support a demand. More people are going to try to retire than any time in history of the current social system. The math doesn't add up - simply put production will not supply demand with mass reductions to the work force. More people will be retired than the work force can support.

Politicians who need a short term result search for a quick fix. One quick fix is media - keep the talk positive. Another is laws, change the laws to allow fuzzy accounting. Change when you declare losses (losses can be deferred more than a year) and change the terms of return (allow more than a year to try to achieve interest returns that aren't there).

Now this will allow calm during the storm. The people in charge are still in a panic they need those returns. In order to achieve a return one must drop legitimate blue chip for high risk returns.

At this point eager people race to offer their scheme of high risk for investment. Its all a ponzi scheme and the government is in on it. With less labour in the market and higher costs only one possibility is possible the current value of money will decrease one way or another.

Re: The Global Demise of Pension Plans 8 months, 3 weeks ago #5003

  • Patrick
  • OFFLINE
  • Junior Boarder
  • Posts: 24
  • Karma: 0
I guess pension plans won't matter much if that Arctic News piece is likely. That is some scary shit--like an end of the world horror/disaster movie only real.

I can only make out some of the data, but what I do understand is awesome, not in a good way. Kind of takes the satisfaction out of saying, "I told you so," don'tcha think?

It brings me back to William Catton and Overshoot. Meanwhile over at the Big Tent Mitt and Barry duke it out for charity.

The Global Demise of Pension Plans 8 months, 3 weeks ago #5035

  • Henriksson
  • OFFLINE
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Posts: 3
  • Karma: 0
"The best, or even only, advice for those of us who belong to younger generations is: don't count on getting a pension when you reach retirement age. It’ll probably have been moved to age 85 or over by the time you get there anyway."

Since I'm 20, my retirement would then be 65 years into the future, the year 2077. You'll have to excuse me if I doubt you have any idea about retirement arrangements in such a distant future, given that it's difficult predicting things only ten years hence.

Re: The Global Demise of Pension Plans 8 months, 3 weeks ago #5036

  • ilargi
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 142
  • Karma: 6
Henriksson:

Since I'm 20, my retirement would then be 65 years into the future, the year 2077. You'll have to excuse me if I doubt you have any idea about retirement arrangements in such a distant future, given that it's difficult predicting things only ten years hence.

Yes and no.

I think it's best to recognize that pension plans as a whole are historical aberrations. They didn't really exist in the west before, say, the 2nd half of the 20th century, and don't to this day in most of the world. Your kids and grandkids - if you live long enough - are your retirement plan, mostly. China has close to zero provisions for retirement, which is why savings rates are so much higher there. In many countries in Africa and Asia, the very notion of savings is a mirage.

I don't see how for 20-year-olds today there would be any pensions available in 2077. I really do think our present wealth has been a one-off, simply because of the financial crisis, the energy crisis and the climate crisis.

We live, or have lived, with this idea that we can work today to provide not only for our day to day expenses, but also for our decades into the future ones, and perhaps even our children's. Try that one flipping burgers.

You take a step back and it all looks quite convoluted. Not promising.

The Global Demise of Pension Plans 8 months, 3 weeks ago #5039

  • Henriksson
  • OFFLINE
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Posts: 3
  • Karma: 0
Ah yes, I see I've been approaching this in a too complicated manner. Forget about distracting spanners in the works such as the historical struggle of the working class movement to secure rights, different socio-economic models, the required labour vis-a-vis the amount of consumption of natural resources, the future and past relations between people, or that there could indeed be a different way of providing for the sustenance of senior citizens beyond their own private savings, and a million of other things. There is but one factor, and that is the hard to define concept of "wealth". I will now take a step back and calculate exactly how 2077 will be.

Re: The Global Demise of Pension Plans 8 months, 2 weeks ago #5165

  • pipefit
  • OFFLINE
  • Expert Boarder
  • Posts: 157
  • Karma: 0
Hi Henrik, you said, "There is but one factor, and that is the hard to define concept of "wealth"."

What is so hard about defining 'wealth'. Wikipedia says, "Wealth is the abundance of valuable resources or material possessions." Close enough.

The problem is that there are frequently competing claims against 'wealth', especially in times of shortage. You grow corn, and you forward sell half your crop, for expense money. But you get a bad harvest and it is half the normal size. And you are hungry. In theory, none of that corn is yours, even though you grew it and you are starving to death. Competing claims.

On a larger scale, the USA has forward sold the economic output of the next generation. Maybe we should have asked them (you, lol) if they/you wanted us to forward sell half your output over your lifespan and give it to Iraq, Afghanistan, drug dealers, makers of flat screen t.v.'s, etc.

So you see, your calculator will be of no use to you in your attempt to determine your retirement situation. It is dependent on political, socio-economic, and moral value questions and answers. Like, 'should we feed the old farts or kick them to the curb, lol?'...........
  • Page:
  • 1
Time to create page: 2.21 seconds








 

Blog Archive

Powered by mod LCA


Stoneleigh Occupies:

 

Nicole Foss Lecture Tour:

AUSTRALIA/NEW ZEALAND March-June 2013


New Zealand May/June Dates still available


May 24 Waiheke Island
Palm Beach Hall 6.30pm

May 27 Auckland
The Hillsborough Room, The Fickling Centre (Mount Eden) 7.30pm

May 29 Tauranga
Baycourt 7.15pm

May 30 Wellington
Sustainability Trust, 2 Forresters Lane 5.30pm

June 1 Otaki
Clean Technology Centre 47 Miro St. 1.30pm


US Fall 2013 - Dates Available

Request Lectures: StoneleighTravels •at• gmail •dot• com.


Follow Us:


 
Get free email alerts for The Automatic Earth
Email:

You can support TAE by ordering all your Amazon purchases through this search box:



Google Translation