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TOPIC: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On?
The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3708
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We're gonna get a bit controversial on the TAE blog today. I know for a fact that some people will be very offended by this posting, written/compiled by Surly of the Doomstead Diner. Therefore, I'd like preface it with a disclaimer, so to speak. I am going to introduce the issues involved here and give you a few of my thoughts on why they are so important to be considered at this point in time. The long and short of it is that the posting encompasses an ongoing (never-ending) debate between RE, Surly, I and countless others on various forums, including TAE and the Doomstead Diner, about the wisdom of launching a modern day Inquisition, or what I call the Orkin Man Master Plan ("OMMP") - a plan designed to systemically root out very high-level officials of our corporatist financial system across the globe, and ultimately exterminate them. Everyone agrees that the plan will invariably involve a significant number of innocent "casualties of war" along the way. First of all, RE wants to make clear that this is just his personal view - one that he feels compelled to defend against critique - and is by no means a reflection of the majority view at the Diner or something that dominates the conversation over there. So let's just take this for exactly what it is - a comprehensive debate over the merits and the wisdom of the OMMP - nothing more, nothing less. RE argues that such a plan is humanity's last best chance to take the offensive against these wicked forces and destroy them before they destroy us, and it is ultimately a Utilitarian issue of sacrificing a certain % of innocent lives to save an even greater %. Surly disagrees. Some of you may have also read the lengthy exchange between RE and I on this issue, and therefore you know that I whole-heartedly disagree with RE as well. Surly and I both agree that, in the last instance, it comes down to a question of morality and personal values. Although, there is also plenty of room to debate the nitty-gritty details of this particular OMMP and how it will WORK or NOT WORK, as the case may be. Some of you may be wondering - why even give any credence or exposure to RE's view by acknowledging it in a posting here? The truth is that most of us are eventually going to have to confront these issues in our lifetimes, and there's no sense in hiding from them now or pretending they don't exist. People are out there making similar arguments to RE as I write this today, and they are only going to make them even louder tomorrow, as societal conditions worsen. And they are dead serious... Seeing as how the Golden Dawn (neo-Nazi) party has gained a good deal of popularity in Greece in its most recent national elections (GD obtained its first presence in the House of Parliament), this issue of radically reactionary policy is nothing if not very relevant to the process of financial, economic and sociopolitical collapse. It is exactly the type of blowback against "the system" that TAE has been warning about for some time. Many of the people advocating for some form of OMMP, like RE, truly believe that such a path is our best chance to save the human species and the planet from total annihilation at the hands of minority elites, and have justice meted out to those deserving of it in the process. And some of them, like RE, also happen to be damn convincing with their arguments. My personal participation in this whole whopper of a debate boils down to my belief that it is INCUMBENT on us to be prepared with a response to calls for blood, and to defend our commitments to avoiding such an outcome - whether those commitments are based in ethical, moral and/or practical concerns. If we are not prepared, then we have already lost the argument before it has even started. Once the calls for retribution start sounding off in earnest, the momentum will be near impossible to stop. That is why I am posting this here and hoping that TAE readers share my concerns on the one hand, but also come to this issue with tolerance and objectivity on the other. If you are already offended just by reading this Intro to the article, then I strongly advise that you skip the rest of the posting altogether... because, trust me when I say, there is a lot more material for you to stomach below. Now, with all that out of the way, what follows is Surly's article on the OMMP debate, which really does a great job of tying many different strains of thought together in a succinct and coherent manner. The centerpiece is Surly's very insightful look at the life and times of Pol Pot and his Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. This exposition on Pol Pot is immediately followed by RE's response (separated by lines within the text), which has been excerpted from a more fully-formed response to both Surly and I that can be found on DD - Unforgiven. Surly's concluding thoughts on OMMP continue below the fold, where he ultimately tells us to reflect on the priceless question that must be answered by ALL of us at the end of the day - do you TRULY know which side you are on?
The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On?
Published June 17, 2012 | By Surly
The Orkin man is one of RE's favorite memes, often invoked as a symbol of retribution by the meek against the great. When we watch gangsters confiscate houses with impunity and murder by proxy and a pen (see the story of Norman Rousseau), run the economy into a ditch, commandeered great bonuses and be subject to none of the usual proceedings of justice, it is easy to despair and to look for revenge. This overwritten screed is a meditation upon what has become a thought-provoking thread rife with implications, a thought experiment which, if followed through the course of its own ineluctable logic, obliges each of us to measure where we would fall, and what we would do, in the event TSHTF.
What has actually happened here in this country on these rare occasions when people have stood up en masse to Fight the Power? In a previous lifetime, I investigated and created a documentary about the Battle at Blair Mountain. You will likely not have heard of this, the teaching of labor history having apparently been classified as a Class I misdemeanor here in the FSA. In the largest uprising in the United States outside of the Civil War, in 1921, thousands of miners waged armed warfare in Logan County, West Virginia against mine owners, sheriff Don Chafin, and federal troops, in an effort to unionize the mines. In Mingo, Logan and McDowell counties, miners worked under incredibly bad conditions, were paid next to nothing, had no freedom of speech or assembly, and were dispatched with impunity by mine guards and local politicos in an atmosphere reminiscent of a third-world dictatorship, or contemporary South Carolina. In 1921, thousands of miners and families were evicted from their tents after having the temerity to join a union. The Miners' March, as it was called, was set to change all that. The military was engaged, as always, to Protect Property Rights, those most sacred and revered of all rights extended by the Hand of God to the white, male property owners who created the FSA. The miners' intention was to march to the southwestern coalfields and free fellow miners from abominable treatment at the hands or mine owners.
This was the Battle of Blair Mountain. The battle marked the first time U.S. troops were ordered to bomb civilians. Federal troops squared off against citizen miners, many themselves veterans hardened from recent service in WW I. The union leader Bill Blizzard eventually surrendered his army in order to avoid further civilian casualties. Blizzard was acquitted in court of insurrection. Future UMW & CIO leader John L. Lewis fought alongside Blizzard at the Battle of Blair Mountain and succeeded in getting recognition for the union 14 years later in southern West Virginia. One of the songs that sprung up in the wake of these labor troubles with the song "Which side are you on?" It was written by Florence Reece, the wife a union organizer for the UMW in Harlan County, Kentucky, when the miners of that region were locked in a bitter and violent struggle with the mine owners called the Harlan County War. In an attempt to intimidate the Reece family, the local sheriff illegally entered their family home in search of Sam Reece. Sam had been warned in advance and escaped, but Florence and their children were terrorized in his place. That night, after the men had gone, Florence wrote the lyrics to "Which Side Are You On?" on a calendar that hung in the kitchen of her home. She took the melody from a traditional Baptist hymn, "Lay the Lily Low".
A Song by Florence Patton Reece
Come all of you good workers Good news to you I'll tell Of how that good old union Has come in here to dwell
Chorus: Which side are you on? Which side are you on? Which side are you on? Which side are you on?
My daddy was a miner And I'm a miner's son And I'll stick with the union Till every battle's won
They say in Harlan County There are no neutrals there You'll either be a union man Or a thug for J.H. Blair
Oh, workers can you stand it? Oh, tell me how you can Will you be a lousy scab Or will you be a man?
Don't scab for the bosses Don't listen to their lies Us poor folks haven't got a chance Unless we organize So the miners organized together to Fight the Power, to take the law into their own hands because the law was an ass. What they got for their trouble was the full response of the state in all of its Majesty and force of arms. Eventually the legal system would catch up. In the fullness of time, union rights would be recognized, at least until after World War II, when the elites mounted their counterrevolution under the banner of "right to work" laws. In my loathing for the Banksters and their apologists, I take a back seat to nobody. The bailout of 2008, otherwise known as the "banksters coup," was just the cherry on top of the same toxic milkshake served up as economic and social policy over the last 30 years. The insane clown posse that passes for the modern Republican Party has eyeballed the demographic trends, and pasted together an assemblage of what Drfitglass called "the scattered,raving remnants of the Confederacy for one, last glorious bonfire of democracy." Combine the wholesale assault of the remnant of the New Deal in an atmosphere of "industrialized political hatespeech," Fox News, Hate Radio and the Tea Party with its Billionaire backers, and it's easy to succumb to the desire to want to kill something. Intellectually I hold with Kunstler's "lamppost and 40 feet of sturdy nylon rope" as the due for the "masters of the universe "who have ground down our economy and wrecked the ship of state. But personal morality makes looping the first skein of rope over the lamppost morally fraught. On the other hand, one is left with the spectacle of the pigmen rooting among the remains of the economy and the country, like Wu's pigs disposing of a fresh corpse in HBO's "Deadwood."
It is this episode that springs to mind as I consider the "Orkin Man Master Plan" (OMMP) as discussed on the forum of the Doomstead Diner. The Orkin man is a favorite device of RE, the invoking of which I have enjoyed since the same since his days on The Burning Platform blog. The Orkin man is an exterminator who cleanses the dwelling of lice, vermin, termites and all manner of infestations. The analogy is clear. The remedy less so. One poster on Doomsday Diner posed the question, "Who gets to be the Orkin man?" Indeed. Who gets to be the decider? Being the decider has great costs, which turned on a fundamental moral issue, at a time when our moral and spiritual institutions are in decline, church attendance down, and many people utterly and completely unequipped to weigh moral and ethical questions. And as much as I like to give voice to my inner hunchback, there is that "judge not lest ye be judged" morality imbued by a Catholic education and nun-beatings that inflects one's thoughts, processes and decisions, even decades later. As I reflected on the more recent exemplars of individuals taking on such a strategy in this country, and after Blair Mountain, my mind skittered to thoughts of Kosovo, Afghanistan, El Salvador, Pinochet's Argentina, and then settled on the best recent example: Pol Pot whose efforts to form a Communist peasant farming society resulted in the deaths of 25 percent of the country's population from starvation, overwork and executions. Those Khmer Rouge wanted to return to the land as well, and also wanted to cleanse the parasites, usurers and useless eaters from the face of Cambodia. A cautionary tale about the work of idealists who want to remake a society by means of "cleansing" the "parasites..."
Mao's "Great Leap Forward" included forced evacuations of Chinese cities and the purging of "class enemies, " a move that would apparently gain favor among participants in this thread. Pol Pot now stood up his own "Super Duper New and Improved Great Leap Forward" in Cambodia, which in itself was new and improved, hence renamed the Democratic Republic of Kampuchea. Remember Pol Pot's ringing declaration, "This is Year Zero?" Ah, search your memories. Society was to be "purified." Capitalism, Western culture, city life, religion, and all foreign influences to be extinguished. Intellectuals, bureaucrats and other glasses-wearers were to push wheelbarrows, the better to repent of their pointy-headedness, and to learn the glories of peasant Communism. Foreigners were expelled, embassies closed, foreign economic or medical assistance refused. No use of foreign languages. Newspapers and television stations were shut down, radios and bicycles confiscated, and mail and telephone usage curtailed. Money was forbidden. (That will kick those usurers in the ass.) Businesses were shuttered, religion banned, education halted, health care eliminated, and parental authority revoked. Thus Cambodia was sealed off from the outside world, almost as effectively as if information were controlled by a small handful of media companies. Something about that live-or-die thingy tends to bring out the excesses in our revolutionary heroes. I'll put that in my "Robespierre was overworked and misunderstood" file. Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. All of Cambodia's cities were forcibly evacuated. At Phnom Penh, two million inhabitants were evacuated on foot into the countryside at gunpoint. As many as 20,000 died along the way. Can't let that stop a man with a purpose. Millions of Cambodians accustomed to city life were now forced into slave labor in Pol Pot's "killing fields" where they soon began dying from overwork, malnutrition and disease, on a diet of one tin of rice (180 grams) per person every two days, the better to become compost and improve the yields.
Workdays ran to the 18 hour day, Pol having taken the American South's "right to work" euphemism to heart. The starving were forbidden to eat the fruits and rice they were harvesting, as that was confiscated by the Khmer rouge and loaded onto their own trucks. And you can't have a party without the purges... a veritable binge of purges. Up against the wall went the remnants of the "old society" – the educated, the wealthy, Buddhist monks, police, doctors, lawyers, teachers, glasses-wearers all, no doubt. Ex-soldiers were killed along with their wives and children. Eventually the taste for human blood leads to a paranoia of sorts, and why not? Anyone suspected of disloyalty to Pol Pot, including eventually many Khmer Rouge leaders, was shot or bludgeoned with an ax. "What is rotten must be removed," a Khmer Rouge slogan proclaimed. The casualty count rose until Vietnam launched a full-scale invasion of Cambodia seeking to end Khmer Rouge border attacks. On January 7, 1979, Phnom Penh fell and Pol Pot was deposed, and a Vietnamese puppet government put in. Pol Pot disappeared into the jungles of Thailand with his Khmer Rouge remnant and waged guerrilla war against a succession of Cambodian governments for decades, eventually sputtering out and dying of an apparent heart attack before he could be dragged to trial before an international tribunal.
So it matters little who you pick as the Orkin Man, or how good your motives are, or how thorough your efforts at re-education or eradication may be. The role seems to carry some occupational hazards, as if the appetite for blood, human death and destruction carries with it the seeds of insanity. Although the image of banksters and stockbrokers mucking out pigpens and pushing wheelbarrows through knee-deep mud remains compelling. (Surly continued below the fold...)
Unforgiven (RE's response to Surly)
Published June 17, 2012 | By RE
I go through this bizness of the Nasty Dictators all the time with Ashvin over on TAE, and certainly it is not an easy position to take on the Orkin Man Idea when you have such nefarious types as Pol Pot in the Terminix bizness. I am NOT defending Pol Pot here, because he took on this massively counterproductive attempt at social cleansing with tons of wrong ideas and with tons of corruption involved as well. It also was bound for failure because it was undertaken while the Conduits were still functional. Taking out the Crystal Ball here and looking into the FUTURE though, let's consider some of the ideas involved in this mess.
On the "Forced Evacuation of Big Shities" question. It wasn't true for sure in Cambodia, but look at the Mass Death that may occur in the Big Shities if they are NOT evacuated before JIT delivery fails. You could have a 99% Death Rate in those places. If Pol Pot II was running the show and forcibly evacuating people NOW, maybe you only get a 50% Death rate. So here PPII goes down in History as the Mass Murderer of say 3B People. Except if PPII had NOT done this, 6B would have gone to the Great Beyond instead. It's obviously a tough call to make for a Political Leader when to pull the plug on the Big Shities and tell everyone they have to EVACUATE NOW. It will inevitably result in a Massive Death Toll. But if you think it will be WORSE if you don't do it, if you are willing to take the heat as the worst Mass Murderer in all of Recorded History, maybe you do it.
OK, here we have mostly agreed that Industrial life is going the way of the Dinosaur and people HAVE to go back to the Land as Farmers at least, if not H-Gs. What is going to happen to Obese J6P when you put him out on the land pushing a plow? Instant Heart Attack! Most people currently used to EZ Living courtesy of the thermodynamic energy of Oil simply are not IN SHAPE to work out in the Fields. Is it PPII's FAULT these folks are too fat and weak to pull their own weight out there?
Here of course is the EXCESS which occurs in many an Inquisition/Reign of Terror type scenario. There is going to be a lot of BLOWBACK resultant from many people who have lost their comfortable life and who want to see PPII DEAD because of that. He gets blamed for the problems they have; he gets blamed for their loss of economic status in the society. So PPII gets PARANOID, for good reason. People really ARE out to get him. So he starts Killing Them before they Kill Him. This of course is the Omellette issue Uncle Joe talked about. Its just about impossible to be a manager of massive Die Off without yourself becoming a Target. Yet if SOMEBODY doesn't get int here and try to manage it, the Die Off is WORSE. Morton's Fork situation of course. Now, back in Uncle Joe, Mao and Pol Pot's era, if they played along with the Illuminati they likely could have avoided all that dieing. Except these guys wanted to Exit the Game early, and to exit it they essentially were cutting off their Noses to spite their Faces. They lost the ability to Trade with the outside world and were attempting to Go It Alone, and this messed up all their in place systems which sorta worked as long as you paid your Vigorish to the Illuminati. So all of them go down in History as the most vicious and Genocidal Dictators in all of Recorded History, at least in gross numbers if not in Percentages. I still maintain that the Romanoffs were WORSE than Stalin, but that is not really that important here at the moment. Moving into the FUTURE here, the issue is you cannot even Save As Many as you Can by PLAYING BALL with the Illuminati. Why? Because said Illuminati are Fresh OUT of Cheap Oil to sell you with Loans they hand out to you. So unfortunately here in this Morton's Fork situation, the social dynamic is likely to produce numerous PPIIs and Great Uncle Joes. Because unless somebody does SOMETHING to try to keep the society organized up, the Dieing will be WORSE than it would be if you have some Dictator FORCING people to evacuate the Big Shities. They aren't going to do that on their own until it is too late and they all are starving and Cannibalizing each other.
You know, I paint all sorts of pictures based on the Spanish Inquisition and the Reign of Terror, but the fact of the matter here is that if you simply took away all their wealth and power and dropped these folks into a Housing project in Chicago and left them their Shoelaces, Silk Neckties and Gucci Belts, they would all Hang THEMSELVES in short order. So if you want to go about it this way to absolve yourself of a sense of Guilt for lopping off their Heads, I am fine with that one also. Regardless of the means here, whether it is Seppuku or Capital Punishment, the situation is going to create the BLOWBACK from people who once had power, now removed. They will attempt Counter Revolutions and so forth. So you get forced into a battle here no matter what, and people DIE no matter what. Practical sort of fellow that I am, I work my way through this dynamic to try to find the pathway with the least pain and the greatest survivability for the typical Slave in our society. The means I see working best is to take the battle to the Illuminati before they get the Death Camps rolling in earnest here. You do have to wait for the Failure of the Conduits though, because as long as the Illuminati have the Big Ass Military and Gestapo organized up and functioning, you stand no chance here. Once those Conduits fracture though, the playing field is LEVELLED. Then you don't just get MAD, you get EVEN. (Surly continued...) But point was that any kind of social engineering, social cleansing, ethnic cleansing executed by a political agenda will inevitably collapse, most often due to its own corruption and increasingly escalating paranoia on the part of the strongman or the secret oligarchy of "deciders." There is a reason that we are taught from a very early age, "vengeance is mine saith the Lord, " "Thou shalt not kill," and other Biblical admonishments against the taking of life. It could be that this ancient wisdom recalls that wielding the tools of vengeance is simply above the pay grade of us mere mortals. On the other hand, psychopaths recognize no such compunction. But the question remains: what do we do, what action should we take at a time when psychopaths have commandeered the engines of government and commerce, economic or rate with complete impunity and beyond the reach of such justice as still remains? We are thus faced with an untenable situation: if any one of us were to put on the Pol Pot T shirt, we would find ourselves in a similar situation, fraught with awful decisions and tinged by paranoia, regions of the mind visited by Joseph Conrad. Far preferable to remember the biblical injunctions that direct our conduct, as Ashvin observed:
(Surly) The question each of us has to address is, Which side are you on? If you knew that those in control were working to box you into a freight car headed to an unknown future, but which would likely involve Fresh Towels and Hot Showers, would you get on the train or would you take the fight to them? And would you take the fight to them knowing that they controlled all of the vectors and tools of violence with force overwhelming to individual scale? Indeed, our elites have changed the laws to enable the military to operate with impunity here in the "North American battleground" (yes, friends, if you are paying the least bit of attention, we are indeed the enemy), as they have likewise militarized our local police forces, complete with spiffy looking SWAT team suits, armored vehicles. and drones, as the latest invention. We have as our president the only Nobel Peace Prize winner with a personal kill list. So it may be well to say that we're living in a time where the lessons of history no longer inform what we may be able to infer about the future. All bets are off.
Ultimately, I hold with RE when he says, "save as many as you can," although we may differ about what that means. As an occupier, I believe that our presence in the streets and withholding our consent is everything that we can do. The community gardening movement is a step toward self-reliance, and teaching others to be self reliant. A self-reliant independent populace is anathema to the powers that be. But even the most psychopathic will find it difficult to dial-up a drone strike against a community garden, unless I miss my bet. Our resistance will be nonviolent, as the state has an utter and complete monopoly of the tools of violence, and a demonstrated increasing bloodthirstiness in applying them. I do not wish to make it easy for them, and have little desire to become a martyr, in a time when even bankster loan officers can murder with a pen and a computer. Hunter S. Thompson once described himself as a "Road Man for the Lords of Karma." Since nature, or God bats last, my own view is that through education, self-reliance, and nonviolent resistance we can change a culture. The history of this society guarantees a rain of vengeance and disproportionate response on the part of the minions of the elites, in a road that runs from the Cherokee "Trail of Tears" through Logan Country through Zuccotti Park. And even if successful, the victors turn into monsters. Changing a society will take generations; generations which we may not have. Our opponents have been at this for many decades; we should not expect the quick fix. In the coming days, each of us will need to stand up and be counted. At least I know which side I'm on. |
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3711
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Ashvin, I think this is a good synthesis of the various viewpoints. A difficult and massive task, without a clear resolution, when every choice and outcome is disagreeable.
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3714
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The proposition is immoral because it violates the Non-Aggression Principle. Less important is that it is, of course, a plan doomed to failure, as violence ALWAYS begets further violence.
Positive change will be achieved as it has in the past (see: slavery, women's rights) by pounding the moral argument that the universal application of the NAP is the only moral way forward for the human species, and that followed to its logical conclusions it means the complete rejection of the archaic concept of the nation-state and ALL other forms of violent coercion. Argument from morality works if it is true, and even sometimes temporarily when it is false. It's why the argument from morality regarding the virtue of taxing people to "help the poor" is such powerful sophistry; the moral argument is persuasive, as all moral arguments are, but it fails the test of the NAP and thus ultimately fails as a valid moral argument. Few are inclined to see or hear this obvious truth, unfortunately.... though more and more are seeking and embracing it (see: the Ron Paul movement). We also need to stop treating our children like slaves, coercing them with threats of force and pretensions to moral superiority. I find that those who advocate violence to solve social problems like Surly (and all politicians / statists) were typically humiliated and subjected as children, as so many are (in churches, public schools, etc.), and these people CANNOT help us pave a way forward until they reclaim their true selves, reject the tyranny of illusion and false authority, and truly understand the principles of morality and philosophy that we all innately connect with. There are others out there doing this work folks, making the arguments and mapping out the real-world implications of philosophical thought that goes back to Socrates. People like Stefan Molyneux and Adam Kokesh. You folks are going to keep spinning your wheels and taking us AWAY from peace, freedom and harmony as a species until you truly attempt to understand these issues. The philosophy and principles of freedom, defined by the universal application of the NAP and a universal respect for property rights, is already powerfully and conclusively show us the path forward. Anything else is just wasting time and is, frankly, an embarrassment. |
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3716
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Yes - I am offended by this. Once you present people as lice that we need eradicate to cleanse our houses - you cross the boundary. This is so insane that I don't know the right language to answer this. On the technical level it is a clear invocation of scapegoating mechanism. You first choose your victim, you dehumanize it and cast all of your own sins on it, then you kill it freeing you from your own sins. This is the same as with the kulaks in the russian revolution, the Jews in Nazi Germany and the intelligence in Cambodia (as already mentioned above), it is peculiar how the Nazis (and as I read above the Red Khmers as well) used the same picture of cleansing your house from lice or rats infestation. I am sure they also believed that this was the only choice.
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3721
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English Memorial,
I agree with much of what you write, however, I would be careful about demonizing the nation state at this particular stage of history, less you become an unwitting ally of the Illuminati Globalists, who are likewise demonizing the nation-state for a very different agenda. I, for one, would like to see the step-by-step dismantling of governmental structures from the "top" down, and starting with the UN, the IMF, the EU, NATO, BIS, and the yet to be publicly unveiled NAU (North American Union). Eventually it should reach the point of a hunter-gatherer sized community of about 100 people, where everyone knows each other well. I used to spend time on Lake Titicaca between Peru and Bolivia. There is a group of indigenos who construct floating rafts from the local reeds usually measuring about 100 meters on a side. The Incas tried to draft them for their military, but they would become lame and useless after a couple of hours on hard, dry land. When the people had a dispute that could not be peaceably settled, they would take out a saw and cut the raft in half. The two parts would gradually drift apart. My idea of a truly human resolution. tinyurl.com/6sxslm5 |
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Last Edit: 11 months, 1 week ago by el gallinazo.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Bot Blogger
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3722
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My initial reaction to the article was one of not taking it serious, It seemed like taking out anger against the Illuminati in a harmless diatribe. Never commented on it because it appeared to be a rant with no real purpose but blowing off some steam. Since realizing belatedly the people involved are indeed serious, I feel compelled to agree with posters English Memorial and ZBY. It is indeed offensive, an embarrassment, and a complete waste of time. Are we not conversing and exchanging ideas on this forum to try and prevent this type of chaos, mayhem, and barbaric behavior from destroying all of us? This reminds me of the Charles Manson family and his famous literary masterpiece the Helter Skelter.
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3723
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So I guess my question is, if I live in the city, and my entire yard is a garden, and I know what wild foods there are and where, and I can build things, but I wear glasses, and I'm intelligent enough to know that I saw this coming, and have spent the last four years thinking and writing about it, which goon squad, or cannibals, do I have to be wary of?
www.offthegridmpls.blogspot.com |
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3725
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I really do not see much of a conflict between RE and Surly1.
I agree with both of them that our situation is untenable mainly because this is not a matter of ideology or corrupt and abusive relations between humans with power and those without; the master-slave world view is certainly something that must be dealt with but the environmental collapse that homo sapiens is engineering into the anthropocene die-off (as well a thousands of other species perishing along with Homo Sap) is the main concern. The Orkin man metaphor may be a bit crude because it appears to be advocating genocide. I am certain that any Orwellian and mendacious VD (verbal dancer) resorting to screaming and hollering that "two wrongs don't make a right" is avoiding the issue because the morality aspect of the problem is secondary to the utilitarian concern for the collapsing life support system on earth. That person may be attempting to cloud the issue of responsibility for the resource extraction paradigm that is destroying the ecosphere that lies squarely on the shoulders of the 1%. That person may claim that it is the masses of mankind that are causing all this and the answer to this is an 'ethical' population reduction of 'useless eaters' through conraception, one child policies, abortion, GMO mosquitos, a polluted water suppiy so 'natural' population control from death by dysentery and other fun events will solve the problem (Israel is doing just that to the Palestinians); The 1% and their apolgists are very good at dodging real issues that they are responsible for bringing about and laying all the blame on the 99%. The population issue is real but we must not let it be used as a straw man to protect the 1%'s culpability. The population issue can only be addressed reasonably when we have an egalitarian society. I propose a compromise that is morally acceptable to surly1 and RE (and, of course, myself). When TPTB loss of centralized control that is occurring now sporadically begins to accelerate, we must advocate a world view that DOES NOT single out the 1% criminals as targets for genocide. What we must do is advocate a world view that singles out anyone that has a carbon foorprint above a sustainable level as a threat to the environment. The way to eliminate that threat is to emulate nature and USE that threat (a negative) as an asset (a positive). The barbarity aside, the silliness of Pol Pot in wanting the elite to push wheel barrows was more an exercise in vengeance and humiiation than a planned transition to a sustainable agrarian society. Stalin's "No person ,no proplem" view of people that didn't get with the program was counterproductive as well. These offenders (the 1%) would be used to help bioremediate the environment. How? If you exceed your carbon footprint, then we immediately take a sufficient portion of your land or other resources and distribute it among other earthlings (not necessarily humans) that need some more living space such as endangered species as well as humans from densely populated areas that can now live someplace where they can have a decent quality of life while keeping a sustainable carbon footprint. You do not want an underground of disgruntled elite organizing to terrorize and re-propagandize the populace into buying into the resource extraction paradigm. But, even more so, you do not want a popular blood lust and purge mentality centered on blaming an enemy instead of working to make a sustainable world. We need to use the same tools of propaganda that the elite now use but without the mendacious agenda of profit, profit, profit and the planet be damned. We need in-your-face actual history education for everybody from the cradle to the grave on what went down and why 24/7. It must be lived and breathed by the populace in a fun, Madison Avenue kind of way (without lies and distortions) permeating virtually all media involving living styles ,clothing, interpersonal realtions, etc. In the same (truthful) propaganda, snarky and continuously humorous demonization of predatory capitalist piggery must also be ubiquitous from television programs to radio on the internet or anywhere else. Think of a global version of the Daily Grist website or something like that. The 1% 'owns' (stole through murder and mayhem) over 50% of everything out there that can be bought or sold. The evil these pigs do is directly proportional to their power to coopt the system of laws and human decency through the control of those resources. We free them (:>) of those assets so they can contribute to a sustainable biosphere/ ecosphere and they will have great difficulty convincing even their own offspring that the old way is better. Strip off their assets and force them to engage in bioremediation or imprison them until they agree. While they are in prison tending duckweed ponds (grows on stagnant water and can use feces as ferilizer and grows faster than anything but algae, can be dried and burned as fuel as well as eaten and ducks love it, of course) on the wages they set up recently, we will use those resources to begin the bioremediaiton. Pie in the sky? Perhaps. I recognize that "we" do not have the power to do this now. I recognize that the size of the cohort that defines "we" is still monstrously propagandized by the resource extraction greed is good paradigm so they would be quite willing to kill anyone wanting to disturb the pigfest. It will take a lot of pain for the "we" to be sufficiently numerous and influential to enact the reforms I mentioned. Even then there will be people who want the cathartic exercise of several heads on pikes or hanging from lamposts. We need to avoid that, not because it is immoral, but because it is not in our best interests if our goal is a sustainable society. Remember that history books will be written about this period if we win. Think about how inspiring it will be for the young to read how we, after suffering all these depredations and watching our planet nearly be destroying by the evil of mindless greed, rather than go on a rampage of vengeance and polarization, simply used all the propaganda tools that the 1% previously misused to achieve a sustainable society. Think how this will blunt any fantasies by the descendents of the defunct elite to restore the old 'glory, greed and gore for empire'. Their history must be their unending shame in their ancestors. All that said, there is still the added dimension of total human existence. If our essence continues after death, then our material existence must be placed in a different context. I am a golden rule type Christian. I used to support war but I woke up around 1988. It's wrong and killing is wrong unless it's a kill or be killed situation. Even then, as a Christian, I can picture a situation where a Christian will allow himself to be killed without defending himself in order to blunt further bloodshed. I have not seen the inside of a church for over 20 years because I have come to the conclusion that organized "Christianity" in the U.S. is a pro-war anti-Christian propaganda front for the MIC. One can say that as soon as 'saint' Paul started reinterpreting the Gospels, the corruption of real Christianity began but that's another subject. I bring proper Chrisitian perspective into this because, in a sustainable society, the concept of proper stewardship of the environment as a type 'mankind's burdern' must be discussed. We are self aware so therefore we can avoid nature's programming and mess things up. We sure have. The distorted view of stewardhip preached by Judeo-Christian propaganda is a master-slave relationship. That is wrong and just feeds greed and justifies tyranny over nature as a gift from God rather than a responsibility to maintain the environment they same way it was when God gave us life. This responsiblity requires that we understand, whether atheist or theist, that we are a function of nature and not its master. The proper definition of our stewardship is that we are gardeners and it's NOT our garden. It was here before we were so our duty is to tend it wisely or perish. Stewardhip is a JOB, not a privilege. So if we win this thing, all the brainwashed "christians" with their assbackwards view of what stewardhip is will have to be re-educated along with anybody (mostly those in the Orkin man's crosshairs) wanting to believe that humans can do whatever they want and it's 'okay'. Let's get an Orkin man that overcomes the insects and puts them to work for the environment. |
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3726
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Sorry for the typos. I am not trying to modify the spelling of "stewardship" into only being "hip" if it's called "stewardhip".
Honest! :>) |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3728
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agelbert,
Excellent post. You have really hit the nail on the head, IMO, at least when it comes to your general line of thinking. If we are going to venture into ways to "deal with" the malicious elite, ways that are necessarily Idealistic at this point in time, then we must be willing to expand our minds and consider things that fall well short of genocide, but also rely on a system of punishment/coercion of the relevant offenders. Your proposal is an interesting one - plenty of flaws to be sure, but something to consider. One of the biggest (and perhaps only) problems with OMMP, when it really comes down to it, is that Innocent people will be killed in the process of its implementation. What the elites like to call "collateral damage". Every historical attempt at some kind of OMMP has proven that this is true and practically unavoidable. So any compromise stricken must put that issue in front and find ways to make sure it doesn't happen. That may sound impossible, but I would propose that any compromise worth considering is only possible in so far as the goal of avoiding innocent casualties is possible. Regarding modern the modern Judeo-Christian framework as defined by the establishment, I completely agree. And regarding our stewardship of God's Earth as He would maintain it Himself, according to the TRUE principles of Biblical theology, I also think you are absolutely right. That's what we must strive to do - God would not destroy the environment for short-term pleasure to the point where it became uninhabitable to any of His creatures. Only one point of potential disagreement here: One can say that as soon as 'saint' Paul started reinterpreting the Gospels, the corruption of real Christianity began but that's another subject. Another subject, indeed... but, if not here, then where?? I believe you are referring to the idea that Paul manipulated the records of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in his own writings to conform to his anti-Jewish and Christian view that the Law, as received by Moses, was not really relevant at all to salvation and that only faith in God was required. Frankly, I think those types of claims are over-exaggerated and mostly wrong. Most of Paul's teachings can be shown to be quite consistent with that of Jesus as recorded by his disciples. To believe otherwise also leads down a dangerous road for Christians, in which all manner of stuff in the NT comes into question, because they have been written or influenced by the "deceitful" Paul. To be sure, he is an interesting character from those times, but in the end I think he was truly a devout follower of Jesus and therefore a Christian. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3729
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I think there's a lot of fallacies and false trajectories in the article. For these psychopaths at the top, it really does come down to power and not really any ideology.
I would separate the business and political types from the intellectuals, teachers, and other egg heads. What happened was the uncorruptable were replaced with those towing the party line. Ideally, we want to keep the egg heads yet throw out the current business and political classes. But the act of throwing them out should not be the end goal. What needs to happen is the people need to be informed as to what is really going on. The overthrow will happen automatically after that. But the real question remains, are there enough people that can be educated and want to act? Or is the human race full of people only looking out for their own selfish interests even if it means playign a zero sum game? |
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3730
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@English Memorial,
"The proposition is immoral because it violates the Non-Aggression Principle. Less important is that it is, of course, a plan doomed to failure, as violence ALWAYS begets further violence." I have to defend RE here. If you believe that the OMMP is inevitable, which RE does, morality does not factor into the equation. The only issue is whether you should do unto others before they do unto you. I don't believe we've yet reached the stage where purges/genocide are inevitable, but I do think we are heading in that direction because the current immoral system is killing people every day. Clearly, the current system's mantra is "People Must Die So Our Fictions May Live." Screwflation, "austerity," bailouts -- they are all about protecting the integrity of balance sheets that reflect accumulated "wealth" that does not exist in the real world and which depends entirely on perpetual exponential economic growth in a finite world. Unfortunately, this fictitious wealth is real to those who claim to own it, and they refuse to lose any of it. So, people in the real world must die so the wealthiest 0.5% of the world's population don't lose any points off their score. Because that is what "wealth" becomes when you have so much of it that you can't possibly spend it all: nothing more than a score in a video game. The longer the current system continues, the more likely that purges/genocide become inevitable, but I think we're years, maybe decades, away from that point. Until then, there's no choice to make and no sense talking about the OMMP. |
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3735
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Ummmm,
Got some issues here I think... Has I occurred to the participants of this discussion,That TPTB,primarily the uberwealthy who see,"The bottleneck" "The great Culling" as a "good" thing...If THEY perhaps volunteer themselves to be "The Orkin man"?...The deciders....after all,they are the Executives....the Deciders..... Be very,very,careful what you wish for boys and girls.The fish you talk about do not have the skill to live in the wild.Good example is the goldfish..which will last about 30 seconds in a reservoir filled w/Steelhead. Same is true with those who have the skill set to survive and prosper in today's nasty "civilization"....Such folks as do well in this"Hothouse"environment,might not do so well out in the field English Memorial, "Property rights"are a English,royalist POS foisted on mankind by the same folks who gave us economists,bailouts ect.Its a philosophical justification for greed....My "tribe" has my property rights.... Bee good,or Bee careful snuffy |
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The following user(s) said Thank You: Glennda
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3737
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Golden Oxen wrote:
It is indeed offensive, an embarrassment, and a complete waste of time. If you could take a time machine back to 1960s Cambodia with some computer technology and the knowledge to set it all up so they can communicate with each other, and then they start talking about Mao's "cultural revolution" in China and its potential implications for their own country and population in upcoming years, would you tell them that it's a waste of time to do so? That this guy Pol Pot and his hardline Maoist proposals should be ignored and written off as a waste of time to even consider for more than 5 seconds? Perhaps you would, because it is such an offensive/uncomfortable topic to entertain, but I wouldn't. Because when PP comes to power, and I'm safely back to the future, those Cambodians will still be stuck there with no clue how they have ended up in this situation and no meaningful way of organizing/responding to at least make an attempt at preventing 25% of their numbers from being eventually wiped out. That history will soon rhyme here in the 21st century, except now we actually have the luxury of mass communication/discussion via modern technology. What I am seeking here above all else is to understand and confront reality, all blemishes exposed, and to be honest with myself, even when it is uncomfortable. There is nothing at all embarrassing about this discussion... it must be had. Those who don't have this discussion (along with others), IMO, will be the ones most susceptible to either becoming helpless victims of predictable history or becoming the hapless accomplices of monsters throughout this whole process we call "collapse". |
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Last Edit: 11 months, 1 week ago by ashvin.
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3738
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@Ashvin,
Thanks for the compliment. After reading at this site for a while (and now the Doomstead Diner too), I am impressed with the depth of thought and analysis by just about everyone here. I thoroughly enjoy the intellectual stimulation of non abbreviated (I HATE twitter) comments. In the precarious situation we find ourselves in, at length discussions should be the norm. As to the OMMP, correct me if I am wrong, but when you speak about minimizing the death of innocents even though a lot of death is now baked in the collapsing environment 'pie', you are advocating a type of triage system like doctors developed on battlefields. In ER's view, the 'triage' would entail dispensing with the most incorrigible members of society that fed this collapse (the 1%). In medical triage, the most severely injured are the last to be attended. In the OMMP, the comparison to triage breaks down because the poor (i.e. the innocents) will be the very ones starving, rioting and killing for resources first so they will be those dying the most. I really don't know how that sad and unjust outcome during the upheaval can be prevented. I leave it to people like you, ER and surly1 as well as others here like El Gallinazo to come up with some workable framework on this issue. Take me, for example. I have a pacemaker with about 4 years left until I stop being a modern version of the Eveready bunny. Somehow I don't see Medtronic and the EP (electro physiologist doctor that puts in new batteries or a new pacemaker) medical network being available to me when my battery dies. My concern is more for my wife because there are no survivor benefits on my pension. It's hard for me to think about it so I concentrate on broader issues. As for Paul the Apostle, I think he was a great man who was genuinely converted by Jesus Christ Himself on the road to Damascus. I don't have a beef with him justifying the turning away of the Jews as all part of God's plan for the gentiles to be saved but the a remnant of the Jews would get with the program at the end of the days. I don't have any problems with salvation by faith. I agree with Paul that the commandments of the Old Testament were impossible to keep and they were given to prove that works didn't translate to salvation. It's when he got into the nitpicking about hairstyles and obedience and who could teach and who couldn't that he got too "Ten Commandments new version" (i.e. Jewish Pharisee legalistic crap) for me. He went off the legalistic deep end and none of that stuff should be in the New Testament. As a matter of fact, he himself says in one or two of his epistles that he doesn't claim Holy Spirit inspiration on this or that but the Catholic Church ate that authoritarian pariarchal stuff up and plastered Pauls writings all over the place. Paul's writings have their place but not in a book that is all inclusive of humanity. Paul was way too legalistic. His beautiful writings about the gifts of the Holy Spirit and also how anything done without Love isn't worth a hill of beans are in conflct with his rather obsessive control of who he allowed to accompany him and who he passed judgement on as to fitness for effective evangelism. I'm sure he was a better man than I am but I don't see any comparison in universal appeal with his writings and the Gospels. No, I don't think he tried to rewrite them. I read somewher the Gospels were targeted to the Romans (Mark) and the Greeks and Jews and other gentiles with the Doctor (Luke) being a huge influence. The Gospel of John is almost poetic when you compare it with Paul's writings. To tell you the truth, I never got that deep into it. I just see all the divison out there now and how the MIC apologist pastors (since Viet Nam), racists and woman haters keep using Paul's teachings (in a twisted way most of the time, to be sure) to advance hierarchical concepts and legalisms to keep people 'in their place'. None of that is possible in the Gospels (although some pastors certainly give it the old college try). |
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3739
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I did it again.When I posted Reverse Engineer's initials, I transposed them to ER. Sorry, it shoyld have been RE. My transpositional aphasia and//or a bit of dyslexia is showing.
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3740
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Repost from a response I made to WHD in the Diner Version of this debate:
RE wrote: Welcome to the diner WHD. Lucky your middle name isn't Michael. Then you would be WMD. The concept that the Inquisition is coming after every last J6P is one Ashvin likes to paint, but that is not likely to be the way this one plays out. By the time people here get riled up enough for this kind of action, the transfer of wealth will be complete and about EVERYONE except the .01% will be living in desperate poverty. At this point you are in the position of a Christoulas in Greece, with NOTHING LEFT TO LOSE The Inquisition also cannot and will not succeed until the Failure of the Conduits, aka the Monetary system, the Electrical and Communications and Transportation Networks and the Fracture of the Big Ass Military into many competing factions all with ever less fuel and ammo to work with. In the main, the Inquisition results from the individual Warlords wresting control from the .01%, and so this is where it will focus. So the folks who have to be concerned about this are generally the high managerial levels of major Corporations, Hedge Fund Managers, High Level Politicians and Bureaucrats and then the levels above that as they get ferreted out, beginning with the Bilderbergers and going up from there. It will be a VERY chaotic situation overall, "anarchy" if you will for a while. Whichever side you are on, your Loyalty has to be Unquestionable, because there will be many involved in the Quisling game, and as soon as that gets even SUSPECTED of you, you will be summarily EXECUTED. This is HOW this dynamic works, regardless of all the Christian philosophy Ashvin pumps off his keyboard on a daily basis. Ashvin has this Vision that the Highly Principled and Moral Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Hindus and Muslims of the world are going to rise up to fight this dynamic, but he is so far wrong its not even funny. The fact is these folks will be watching their children DIE of starvation daily, they will have no opportunities for a better life and they will do what they feel they have to do to survive. They will either Line Up with the Local Warlord who will promise to get rid of their long term Oppressors, or they will join the Gestapo of the Oppressors for so long as they have working Money to pay them. Jay Gould's 50% of the Working Class will be hired to kill the other 50%. This lasts only so long as the monetary system lasts, and perhaps not even that long. The Inquisition results from the fact that these Warlords will be just as vicious, ruthless and cunning as the Illuminati ever were, in fact moreso because they grew up mostly on the Streets. When the Big Hardware no longer functions, the Illuminati will be EATEN ALIVE, possibly in the literal sense of that metaphor. This dynamic likely remains a few years off here for the FSofA, possibly even decades but I doubt it. You just have to watch as one place after another cascade fails here into EXACTLY the kind of dynamic I am talking about. This is REALITY. A few more places fall into this situation, I should be able to generate a decent mathematical function to describe it also and make a better timeline prediction. Anyhow, this is the most likely scenario I can generate up, so it's the one I consider the wisest to prep for, in order to figure out how NOT to be caught up by one side or the other and exterminated yourself. You have to be very sensitive to the power structure as it shifts, and sense when the Herd is ready to Stampede. Because mark my words, that day is Coming Soon to a Theatre Near You. RE |
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Unforgiven 11 months, 1 week ago #3741
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One more thing. For those of you who have not read the full version of Unforgiven on the Diner, you cannot really argue this one with me here because as presented in this compilation by Ashvin, you get a very skewed perspective on my arguments. I will just attach in this post my closing paragraphs from Unforgiven.
RE wrote: I do not see Mass Death as avoidable at this point, and I cannot accept the alternative of allowing what is going on now to end in an Extinction Level Event either. So the only real question for me here is who lives, who dies and how you cut the losses as best you can. The only people who can do that are Orkin Men. I don’t believe there will be ONE Orkin Man of vast power and control like a Mao or Uncle Joe here, I think the society is fracturing too fast for that too organize up now. Rather I think the fractured society will breed up various Orkin Men, all with varying styles and methodology, but in the end all will be responsible for the very same thing, which is MANAGING DEATH. If YOU were charged with this unbearable responsibility, how would YOU react, what would YOU choose to do? For me, the right meme does not come off the pages of The Bible, it comes from the Pop Culture paradigm of the Old West, personified best by Clint Eastwood in so many films, from the Spaghetti Westerns to the Unforgiven. We ARE an Unforgiven bunch as Homo Sapiens, and there really are times when a Stranger needs to Ride into Town and take out the Bad Guys. This is one of those times, for sure. Also, Ashvin did NOT include the Videos I presented in Unforgiven to set the stage for my arguments, and they are a very important aspect of this debate. I will add just one of them here as well. For the rest, read Unforgiven in its entirety on the Diner Blog. Imagine YOURSELF watching the shit get kicked out of little children, or murdered in cold blood. Imagine YOURSELF being beaten to a bloody pulp here. How would YOU react to that? This is happening in Greece and Syria now AS WE SPEAK. How many kids were murdered in the latest Syrian "atrocity"? Who REALLY is responsible for that? Are you going to let them GET AWAY with that kind of shit? Not if you got an ounce of COURAGE you are not. Not IMHO anyhow. Hang em High RE |
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Last Edit: 10 months, 4 weeks ago by Reverse Engineer.
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3742
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agelbert wrote:
As to the OMMP, correct me if I am wrong, but when you speak about minimizing the death of innocents even though a lot of death is now baked in the collapsing environment 'pie', you are advocating a type of triage system like doctors developed on battlefields. In ER's view, the 'triage' would entail dispensing with the most incorrigible members of society that fed this collapse (the 1%). In medical triage, the most severely injured are the last to be attended. In the OMMP, the comparison to triage breaks down because the poor (i.e. the innocents) will be the very ones starving, rioting and killing for resources first so they will be those dying the most. I really don't know how that sad and unjust outcome during the upheaval can be prevented. I leave it to people like you, ER and surly1 as well as others here like El Gallinazo to come up with some workable framework on this issue. Take me, for example. I have a pacemaker with about 4 years left until I stop being a modern version of the Eveready bunny. Somehow I don't see Medtronic and the EP (electro physiologist doctor that puts in new batteries or a new pacemaker) medical network being available to me when my battery dies. My concern is more for my wife because there are no survivor benefits on my pension. It's hard for me to think about it so I concentrate on broader issues. I am sorry to hear that... but hopefully we aren't that far gone 4 years from now. Perhaps that's a leap of faith, though. I am not advocating for OMMP at all - I think it's a really bad idea for many reasons. I've been over the practical problems with him many times, and most of that stuff is captured by Surly's Pol Pot analysis in the article. Even the best laid plans... There is probably some confusion about what the OMMP actually entails for those not already familiar with RE's writings on the idea. I think of it literally like a modern Spanish Inquisition after the "conduits", or the monetary/energy mechanisms of elite control, have broken down. But I'll leave it to RE to come here and explain it in more detail if he wants to. As for Paul the Apostle, I think he was a great man who was genuinely converted by Jesus Christ Himself on the road to Damascus. I don't have a beef with him justifying the turning away of the Jews as all part of God's plan for the gentiles to be saved but the a remnant of the Jews would get with the program at the end of the days. I don't have any problems with salvation by faith. I agree with Paul that the commandments of the Old Testament were impossible to keep and they were given to prove that works didn't translate to salvation. It's when he got into the nitpicking about hairstyles and obedience and who could teach and who couldn't that he got too "Ten Commandments new version" (i.e. Jewish Pharisee legalistic crap) for me. He went off the legalistic deep end and none of that stuff should be in the New Testament. As a matter of fact, he himself says in one or two of his epistles that he doesn't claim Holy Spirit inspiration on this or that but the Catholic Church ate that authoritarian pariarchal stuff up and plastered Pauls writings all over the place. Paul's writings have their place but not in a book that is all inclusive of humanity. Paul was way too legalistic. His beautiful writings about the gifts of the Holy Spirit and also how anything done without Love isn't worth a hill of beans are in conflct with his rather obsessive control of who he allowed to accompany him and who he passed judgement on as to fitness for effective evangelism. Right, I think we pretty much agree here. It's interesting because apparently Paul is from the Tribe of Benjamin (son of Jacob) of the OT, who was quite the conflicted character. Perhaps that was "prefiguring" the life and teachings of Paul much later? Either way, we can definitely agree that the legalistic Church stuff is mostly bogus and that Paul's doctrines, the conflicted character that he was, were ripe for being abused by the Catholic Church. Personally, I don't even think the Pope should exist, as matter of the absence of any Biblical justifications. |
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Re: Unforgiven 11 months, 1 week ago #3743
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Ah, there you are RE, right on cue.
Reverse Engineer wrote: Imagine YOURSELF watching the shit get kicked out of little children, or murdered in cold blood. Imagine YOURSELF being beaten to a bloody pulp here. How would YOU react to that? This is happening in Greece and Syria now AS WE SPEAK. How many kids were murdered in the latest Syrian "atrocity"? Who REALLY is responsible for that? Are you going to let them GET AWAY with that kind of shit? Not if you got an ounce of COURAGE you are not. Not IMHO anyhow. This is the biggest piece of propaganda wrapped up in the OMMP, as should be expected. RE himself admits it is being framed in pop culture terms, where the OMMP involves tough, courageous Orkin Men going around saving innocent children and women from being raped and murdered. Or perhaps you are simply defending yourself from being beaten to death... When we think about it intellectually, though, this whole pop culture meme falls apart. What he is really describing here is a SYSTEM of people responsible for "managing death", perhaps at the global scale which was first advocated (now it seems like more of a decentralized, localized thing for RE), which is by definition far removed from any form of immediate self-defense or defense of others. Wherever this system occurs and at whatever scale, we are talking about forcing all manner of people to abide by certain RULES of the Inquisition or be stricken down. This could be the CEO of Goldman Sachs who is doing anything to avoid justice for his crimes against humanity or the poor guy who finds the whole thing morally repulsive. Or perhaps the innocent women and children who are forced to evacuate certain areas that are no longer suitable for them to live, according to the Inquisition's deciders. And maybe they're right, but they will ultimately be responsible for all those deaths. We're talking about innocent people that will get caught up in this thing one way or the other - obviously a fact that RE likes to marginalize. Because as soon as we accept that reality, the whole meme of courageous Clint Eastwood riding into town to wipe out the bad guys, and ONLY the bad guys, falls apart. That's just not how it works in the real world at anything above the smallest scales of operation - never has, never will. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3744
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ashvin wrote:
There is probably some confusion about what the OMMP actually entails for those not already familiar with RE's writings on the idea. I think of it literally like a modern Spanish Inquisition after the "conduits", or the monetary/energy mechanisms of elite control, have broken down. But I'll leave it to RE to come here and explain it in more detail if he wants to. Done in my last 2 posts. The confusion lies in the fact you obfuscate what I write and leave out many important details. You have the objective to spin this here toward the viewpoint you hold true, you explicitly told me so in the Diner. Ashvin wrote: There is no way in Hell I would ever post something that comes off as pro-Inquisition or even Inquisition-neutral... it would just be very irresponsible of me in my role as a steward of I&S' blog, and it would also offend my personal morality. So it is up to the readers here to go over to the Diner to read the original material free of your spin. I have faith that those really interested in debating the issue with full knowledge of what was written will do so. RE |
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Re: Unforgiven 11 months, 1 week ago #3745
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ashvin wrote:
We're talking about innocent people that will get caught up in this thing one way or the other - obviously a fact that RE likes to marginalize. Emphasis mine. Precisely Ashvin, one way or the other, this is coming down the pipe here. Its the SAME dynamic that has played itself out many times over now through history, just this time on a way bigger scale. You think this one will be DIFFERENT? On what basis? People are much more moral now than they were when Rome collapsed? When the Romanoffs got filled full of lead in a Ruskie Basement? When Marie Antoinette's head went rolling down the Champs d'Elysee like a Bowling Ball? We GOT RELIGION in the meantime here? What? If you think that, I put to you that you are sadly mistaken. I do NOT marginalize it either, I make it explicit that this is the nature of the beast. Because as soon as we accept that reality, the whole meme of courageous Clint Eastwood riding into town to wipe out the bad guys, and ONLY the bad guys, falls apart. That's just not how it works in the real world at anything above the smallest scales of operation - never has, never will. I NEVER said the Man with No Name will wipe out ONLY the Bad Guys. I have EXPLICITLY stated on numerous occassions that you "Cannot Make an Omelette without Breaking a Few Eggs". The collateral damage here is going to be ENORMOUS, beyond any scale ever in all of Recorded History. This is sadly IMHO the last and final Battle for ALL THE MARBLES. Good versus Evil in the Showdown at the OK Corral. Get the Modified Winchesters ready boys and girls, you're gonna need them. RE |
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Re: Unforgiven 11 months, 1 week ago #3746
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Ashvin Quote "If you could take a time machine back to 1960s Cambodia with some computer technology and the knowledge to set it all up so they can communicate with each other, and then they start talking about Mao's "cultural revolution" in China and its potential implications for their own country and population in upcoming years, would you tell them that it's a waste of time to do so? That this guy Pol Pot and his hardline Maoist proposals should be ignored and written off as a waste of time to even consider for more than 5 seconds? "
Your good intentions are noted and most appreciated. My personal opinion is that RE has gone off the deep end with this one, and both you and Surly, being among the brightest and respected bulbs in our meeting places, have given substance and legitimacy to this Orkin Man madness buy treating it seriously. Cynical, disillusioned with government and all of its institutions, gold hoarding crank that I have become; it is offensive to me to have the US,Europe and it's citizen and leaders compared to Cambodia and Poll Pot. May I also object to your assertion that the end of a credit cycle and its depressing effect on the world economy, collapse as you call it, leading to this sort of mayhem is in error. The world has survived ups and downs in the business cycle with much hardship regularly, but this sort of madness arising is hardly a given. We face grave problems, no doubt about it; this sort of rhetoric is hardly the answer to them. |
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Re: Unforgiven 11 months, 1 week ago #3747
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Golden Oxen wrote:
My personal opinion is that RE has gone off the deep end with this one, and both you and Surly, being among the brightest and respected bulbs in our meeting places, have given substance and legitimacy to this Orkin Man madness buy treating it seriously. I am so far off the Deep End I got no IDEA where the Shallow End you inhabit is anymore. So STUFF IT GO, along with your GOLD. You Talkin' to ME? Nobody else here.... RE |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3749
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Before anybody gets on my case for that last post, I remind you all that if I get Napalmed (and accusing me of being "off the Deep End" IS Napalm), I practice the Chicago Way always. I'll just light it up like Vietnam on a Summer's Day n 1969 with commentary like that.
RE |
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Re: Unforgiven 11 months, 1 week ago #3750
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Golden Oxen wrote:
My personal opinion is that RE has gone off the deep end with this one, and both you and Surly, being among the brightest and respected bulbs in our meeting places, have given substance and legitimacy to this Orkin Man madness buy treating it seriously. Cynical, disillusioned with government and all of its institutions, gold hoarding crank that I have become; it is offensive to me to have the US,Europe and it's citizen and leaders compared to Cambodia and Poll Pot. May I also object to your assertion that the end of a credit cycle and its depressing effect on the world economy, collapse as you call it, leading to this sort of mayhem is in error. The world has survived ups and downs in the business cycle with much hardship regularly, but this sort of madness arising is hardly a given. We face grave problems, no doubt about it; this sort of rhetoric is hardly the answer to them. GO, several thoughts in response: The Orkin man is a thought experiment, not a call to action. It is also a thought experiment with real world applications. As I noted in my opinion piece, I have gathered the stories, interviewed participants first-hand, and been impressed by the courage and resolve of the people who were obliged to answer the question, "Which side are you on?” This really happened, in this country, within the memories of people still alive, at least when I was a younger man. To say, in effect, "it can't happen here” is both naïve and mistaken. It did. The OMMP may not happen on our watch. It may be that the conduits of energy and power will flow untrammeled for the next 50 years, which will surely see most of us out. Yet when I consider the constellation of repressive laws that have been urged on our books, from the ill named Patriot Act, through the more recent NDAA, through the suspension of posse comitatus to the declaration of the "North American battleground," I become aware, as I noted in my article, that inferring the future from the past may no longer be a viable option. This country currently enjoys a very different legal framework from that in which we grew up. Our society, even our law enforcement agencies, are far more hardened and militarized than they ever have been. Infer from that what you will; I infer potential mischief. Here's a thought experiment for you: Google up the number and location of FEMA sites across the country, then construct a theory as to what they are for and how they will be deployed. Likewise, I cite Pol Pot only as a cautionary tale, to explore the implications of the monomania that, with being the "decider” in an OMMP scenario. Again, this happened within our lifetimes, on our watch, if you will. We limited. The politics so corrosive that a state legislature has taken to outlawing the use of the word "vagina" on its floor, although that will not keep them from legislating on the subject. Are we really to think that "American exceptionalism” will save us from the depredations of some future strongman on a horse? If you believe that, allow me to refer you to an excellent book by Marine Gen. Smedley Butler, "War is a Racket”, and to Howard Zinn's remarkable "A People's History of the United States.” As a self-professed Christian, I tried to apply my understanding of Christianity to my behavior and motives, with varying degrees of success. That doesn't mean that evil doesn't exist and isn't at this moment hard at work while we debate this theoretical. Rust never sleeps. |
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The following user(s) said Thank You: Golden Oxen
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Re: Unforgiven 11 months, 1 week ago #3751
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Surly1 wrote:
The Orkin man is a thought experiment, not a call to action. It is also a thought experiment with real world applications. Hallelujah. At least one Homo Sapiens understands this. Which is of course why Surly and I coexist inside the Diner. About nobody BESIDES Surly really grasps how I do Thought Experiments. I suppose because he saw so many of them play out on TBP and had patience to figure them out. You CANNOT understand Human and Social Dynamics if you are not willing to play out in your mind how people actually do react to given situations. Religion does not explain this stuff. Surly is absolutely the ONLY person I ever met who really grasps this fact (despite the fact we do not draw the same conclusions). RE |
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Re: Unforgiven 11 months, 1 week ago #3754
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@ Surly I am in total agreement with what you write here Surly, so it has become very apparent to me that I have missed the drift and true message of what has been intended. Hardly the first time I have been in a fog with a topic. Thank you for your clarification, as mentioned earlier I had considered it a steam blowing rant at it's inception so it is clear I was lost from the very beginning. My apologies to all for being lost. GO
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The following user(s) said Thank You: Surly1
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Re: Unforgiven 11 months, 1 week ago #3755
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GO, no problem. I go off on impassioned tangents and often bury the lead. And, if I may lapse into seriousness for a moment, leads me to touch on the (probably well-buried) point of my post--
--that we, either ourselves or our children, will be called to answer the question, "Which Side are you On?" for real at some point. Play out RE's thought experiment, and one finds oneself wading in the blood of innocents on all sides, with no good way to respond, and no clear choice; even pacifism caries enormous, monstrous costs. One's response is a profoundly ethical question. How will a people long inured to distraction, with little capacity for self-reflection and less moral and ethical grounding, respond in such a case? I am grateful to Ashvin for his thoughtfulness and courage in allowing this discussion into the "big tent" of TAE. We have a rollicking good time over at the Diner with such discussions, and often employ a sort of verbal shorthand that may easily be misunderstood. Ashvin did yeoman work in attempting to provide a context for this discussion. |
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Re: Unforgiven 11 months, 1 week ago #3756
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@ Surly Ashvin certainly is hard working and provides us all with a prolific amount of quality writing and commentary. We sure do have a good time at the Diner, a much less formal atmosphere for sure. If only RE wouldn't yank that rifle out so much. Have you ever wondered what the DD would be like if he were a fan of Kung Fu instead of the Rifleman when a mere lad? Wouldn't RE make a wonderful Little Grasshopper?
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3757
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This " thought experiment " transported me back in time to a day in high school when my history teacher arrived wearing a black armband. It was when Russia invaded and occupied Hungary. He uttered the phrase " Better eed than dead ". Quite a problem for my teen-age mind to contemplate. I've been a world watcher since that day and am still uncertain as to what I will do. I do see myself working for the resistance but in what role?
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3759
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Hi All, first of all, we *really* need to stop pretending guys like Pol Pot and Mao were doing anything for the "little people" other than dominating them for their own selfish purposes.
"Pol Pot whose efforts to form a Communist peasant farming society..." Uh, no. Pol Pot wasn't "Communist" any more than Hitler was "National Socialist." Pol Pot set up an authoritarian oligarchical dictatorship that DOMINATED the peasants they didn't outright murder. Second, I don't think this is that complex - just apply the rule of law. Those people who committed fraud... including the people who set up the fraudulent Federal Reserve System societal wealth conveyance fraud... www.keepandshare.com/doc/3325954/debt-dollar-tyranny-2-54k?tr=77 We also need to confiscate the ill gotten wealth of Big Finance Capital at the top of that flow chart so that society's monetary assets balance out with society's debt AND unstrap the debt "vest" from the debt money tyranny "terrorist" Federal Reserve System Big Finance Capital Trojan Horse. and the people who systematically broke Section 2A of the Federal Reserve Act and lied about it in order to provide cover for their know legal activity need to be charged with criminal fraud as well. www.keepandshare.com/doc/3324744/wmdebt-graph-3-79k?tr=77 All the bankers that perpetrated fraud, all the ratings agencies that perpetrated fraud on down the line ALL get prosecuted and those found guilty get the appropriate punishment for their crime. All the false documents filed in foreclosure have felony perjury charges waiting to be filed. I don't support anything that takes out innocents... we need to simply apply the rule of law against those "animals" that have proclaimed themselves "more equal" than the rest of us through their actions. Of course, this will never happen so long as the typical citizen is in a narcissistic induced, false reality stupor. You can't solve a problem when you have NO IDEA what that problem is. The first step is to define the problem... and when I do that, more than 9 out of 10 people have a visceral reaction and essentially run away. No debate, no sharing of thoughts, no dialogue, no critique... just covers pulled over the eyes as though that is gonna keep the bad men away. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3760
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Concerning Paul remember what Peter said about him.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3761
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So how about this model if you are talking about after the wheels fall off.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_reconciliation_commission |
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Candace
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3762
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TheTrivium4TW wrote:
Hi All, first of all, we *really* need to stop pretending guys like Pol Pot and Mao were doing anything for the "little people" other than dominating them for their own selfish purposes. "Pol Pot whose efforts to form a Communist peasant farming society..." Uh, no. Pol Pot wasn't "Communist" any more than Hitler was "National Socialist." Pol Pot set up an authoritarian oligarchical dictatorship that DOMINATED the peasants they didn't outright murder. Second, I don't think this is that complex - just apply the rule of law. Those people who committed fraud... including the people who set up the fraudulent Federal Reserve System societal wealth conveyance fraud... Uh, not sure what article you were reading, as no one is "pretending" anything; I do not disagree with your conclusion-- the Khmer Rouge called themselves "Communist," a designation which proved to be as meaningful as, say, "Republican" is today. The nomenclature made no difference to those trapped in the Killing Fields. As for "applying the rule of law," the "law" has been bent out of shape by obliging, bought-and-paid-for legislators who peddle their souls, as well as the public trust, to the highest bidder, and who cut the legislation to order for their clients. Jail who? For what? On what legal basis? Those who fail to get with the program face limited sources of campaign cash for their re-election campaigns, plus the opprobrium of a handful of oligarchs (think Koch Brothers.) I am reminded that the Third Reich assumed power perfectly legally as well. |
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Re: Unforgiven 11 months, 1 week ago #3765
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[quote="Reverse Engineer" post=3745]ashvin wrote:
I NEVER said the Man with No Name will wipe out ONLY the Bad Guys. I have EXPLICITLY stated on numerous occassions that you "Cannot Make an Omelette without Breaking a Few Eggs". The collateral damage here is going to be ENORMOUS, beyond any scale ever in all of Recorded History. This is sadly IMHO the last and final Battle for ALL THE MARBLES. Good versus Evil in the Showdown at the OK Corral. Get the Modified Winchesters ready boys and girls, you're gonna need them. I know you never said that, so stop using that BS meme as some kind of mixer for the hard spirits you're selling us. You do it again right below - "good versus evil in the showdown at the OK corral"... uh, no, the self-proclaimed righteous versus anyone and anything that doesn't fall in the same camp, including innocent men, women and children, in the entrenched warfare across the world. The innocent will die at the hands of both the Elite and the OMMP - the meme fails to reflect this fact at all. I guess you can keep using it, RE, but no one's buying it. About nobody BESIDES Surly really grasps how I do Thought Experiments. I suppose because he saw so many of them play out on TBP and had patience to figure them out. You CANNOT understand Human and Social Dynamics if you are not willing to play out in your mind how people actually do react to given situations. Religion does not explain this stuff. Surly is absolutely the ONLY person I ever met who really grasps this fact (despite the fact we do not draw the same conclusions). Of course it's a thought experiment (it hasn't happened yet)... about how you would go about making a call to action when the time presents itself during phases of collapse, and what that "action" would actually entail. Now even if you are just playing Devil's Advocate here, there is no reason for us not to treat your arguments as if you actually believe them 100% and are committed to them. So that's what I'm doing... but my understanding is that this is much more than Advocate for the Devil with you. When you say religion, I'm assuming you mean any form of spirituality, rather than organized religion. In which case, it is plainly absurd to say that spirituality will not affect human and social dynamics when reacting to tough physical situations. History is replete with examples of people doing just that; a guy named Jesus comes to mind... But many others before and after him as well. Your problem here in this argument is that you are simply assuming that various forms of spirituality, and the ethical/moral realities stemming from them, are FALSE and act as window dressing or comforters for most people in good times, and therefore assuming that they will no longer apply in bad times. That is circular reasoning at its finest. Believe it or not, there are people who take their spirituality very seriously, good times and bad alike. People who are no more willing to stampede with your OMMP than they are with the Gestapo of the current order. Perhaps because they can see through the false framework of utilitarian morality that you have defined for them. You say there numbers will be few, I say, maybe or maybe not (we can't be certain), but it doesn't matter either way. The principles of their morality are relevant to this discussion no matter how you try to circumvent or marginalize them. Because this debate ultimately boils down to the best ways for us, as individuals, to react in very precarious and oppressive times when confronted with herd animals running in all manner of directions, and we all have the free will to decide for ourselves according to our beliefs. Precisely Ashvin, one way or the other, this is coming down the pipe here. Its the SAME dynamic that has played itself out many times over now through history, just this time on a way bigger scale. You think this one will be DIFFERENT? On what basis? The issue for me isn't whether it will come down the pipeline this time or not. I am willing to accept something resembling the OMMP as a very like outcome, and I not using morality as a reason for why it will be stopped. The morality of all this comes in when you say "Well... innocent people are going to die if I do nothing, so that means I am justified in killing innocent people as a part of a plan to save others". This is a position that is ubiquitously admonished in various faiths, and for very good reason, both spiritual and PRACTICAL. And we are not even really talking about faiths that are fundamentally against capital punishment... we are talking about thousands of years of historical development in which certain observers, some more wise than others, have come to the conclusion that what you are advocating is a horrible path to go down, no matter how bad the alternative is, and recent history has proven their concerns justified. |
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Last Edit: 11 months, 1 week ago by ashvin.
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3766
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Reverse Engineer wrote:
Done in my last 2 posts. The confusion lies in the fact you obfuscate what I write and leave out many important details. You have the objective to spin this here toward the viewpoint you hold true, you explicitly told me so in the Diner. Ashvin wrote: There is no way in Hell I would ever post something that comes off as pro-Inquisition or even Inquisition-neutral... it would just be very irresponsible of me in my role as a steward of I&S' blog, and it would also offend my personal morality. So it is up to the readers here to go over to the Diner to read the original material free of your spin. I have faith that those really interested in debating the issue with full knowledge of what was written will do so. RE If you're going to resort to such misleading tactics to make your case, then I am forced to respond. Right after I made that comment, you said this... I have no problem with how you packaged it Ashvin, I'm just making the observation that packaged as is it won't get a whole lot of commentary. But your first comment to me on TAE, quoted above, would imply that you DO have a problem with my packaging... so you were obviously trying to express a false sense of frustration here. Nice try. The reason why you would not be justified in having any problem with my packaging is because, when asking permission to re-post the material, I made it explicitly conditional on my packaging it the way I did. Surly agreed and so did YOU. Your real problem here, of course, is that we HAVE gotten a good deal of commentary, and most of it has come down harshly against you and your argument. You didn't even respond to agelbert, who presented a very interesting alternative to your Orkin Man approach that doesn't involve mass killings. What can I say... people here are smart and wise enough to sort through the issues for themselves and resist your attempts to bully them into a corner. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3769
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When one person jerks off it is masturbation. When a whole bunch of guys help each other, it's a circle jerk. Speaking figuratively of course.
Einstein once famously noted that doing something over and over again but always expecting a different outcome is a functional definition of insanity. The Orkin Man solution has been tried since the start of conventional recorded history. OTOH, if the "doers" are pleased and satisfied with the outcome and have no desire for a different one, that is a different kettle of fish. I read an article a couple of years ago dealing with the Greek protests turning violent. The author, a reporter, would single out the most violent of the protesters repeatedly and then discreetly tailed him afterwards. Strangely enough, it always lead back to a police station. I was shocked, shocked I tell you! |
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Last Edit: 11 months, 1 week ago by el gallinazo.
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3770
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This whole debate reminds me of a game a friend of mine used to play with me. His goal was to find the single two most unattractive people in a crowd, and then ask me, gun to my head, which one would I pick to have sex with.
Perhaps I could choose a third outcome? No, that wasn't the game. It is often the case that after any violent revolution, the moderates - and moderate policies - don't end up in charge when all is said and done. Things quickly move from "a few broken eggs" of moderate collateral damage to "anyone who opposes The Orkin Man" and then finally "anyone who doesn't enthusiastically SUPPORT the Orkin Man" get put up against the wall and shot. This makes logical sense to me; moderates on both sides end up shot or withdrawing in disgust, so much so that one particular group of crazies willing to kill (or die) for their cause ends up winning, eventually. The Taliban is just the latest version of this. This doesn't happen every time people start in with summary executions, but it happens often enough to give me pause, and suggest that instead of choosing between two really undesirable choices, we search hard for a third route and play a different game. Rewrite the No-Win-Scenario, as it were. Otherwise, regardless of original intent, we will in all likelihood end up with a Christian version of Mullah Omar in charge; all the "right people" will be dead or in a camp along with a vast host of others, but neither you nor I will be defining who the "right people" are. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3772
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Ya' well, understanding the problem is in short supply.
As I see it: Problems are opportunities to learn, and isn't that at least one reason we're here? If our universe overseers actually saw an extinction level event on the horizon, don't you think they would take action to head off such an event? Since they have not, at least not yet, then they must trust us to solve these many problems on our own. Killing the bad guys, when the bad guys are so obviously bad, in a one horse town makes for an satisfying movie, but, it's just a movie, entertainment, not to be taken seriously by serious people. We face an infinitely larger collection of issues, not entirely amenable to simply killing off the "bad guys," pleasing and rewarding as that may be(and were such a thing possible I would gladly join in the fun of hunting them down and providing them with citizen justice.) But, that would not "solve" our many issues. Those of us who like to think we actually understand what's going on are a very tiny minority of our citizens. How will it look to those who just don't get it? Are you willing to rob them of their chance to learn to recognize the truth of our existence? Even here, I rarely see mention of the ponzi nature of our monetary system, and, I never see the consequences of a monetary system that is a fraud upon the people. Nor even a hint of the damage to the soul of a system where fraud, abuse of power,theft, murder, etc. are inevitable under a fraudulent monetary system. And, all things evil we see are the result of a monetary system DESIGNED to make slaves of the 99% while enriching the 1/10th of one percent. Simply removing the "evil doers" does nothing to advance civilized society. I am a relative newcomer to these discussions, but have been following events since my own awakening some 8 years ago. Thankfully, I had many years of reading The Urantia Book to lay the foundation for seeking truthful answers to questions. We are not here to make everything right according to the way we understand things to be for we are most surely wrong. We(all of us) are off on a 1000 year adventure of confronting problems and seeking truthful answers. If you wish to be part of the solutions that eventually emerge, seek to be a better person, one with a sincere desire to live a truth seeking life; it's the most that each of us can do. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3774
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If our universe overseers actually saw an extinction level event on the horizon, don't you think they would take action to head off such an event? Since they have not, at least not yet, then they must trust us to solve these many problems on our own. As I recall from Bible class many decades ago, not only did Yahweh not head off the great flood which pushed the human race into near extinction, he engineered it in a fit of pique. But I always suspected that he was psychotic. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3775
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You can't solve a problem when you have NO IDEA what that problem is. The first step is to define the problem... and when I do that, ... Please recall that “Neo”, the hero of the “Matrix” movie, was rerunning the same “program” for the seventh time. (humans are fighting against intelligent machines). Although “Neo” thought that he was out of the “matrix” he was still in the program. The program had been reset 6 times with variations of the events but with the same final out come. A reset. The problem had not been properly identified. Therefore, the solution could not be found and a reset was done hoping for a variable that would change the outcome, a reset. The objective was to find a sustainable outcome. Enough. Back to reality. There is still no consensus on what is the “PROBLEM”. Even if the “PROBLEM” gets identified by an observer nothing will change until it is implemented by “actors”. As a result, there is no way of implementing a solution to the “problem”. Is the problem in the financial system? Is the problem in the social system? Is the problem in our DNA? We are all observers in a reality that has been played out 100‘s of times in the history of mankind and it has been recognized by many writers. I believe that the “problem” is in our DNA. We all want and strive to have a better life for ourself and our loved ones. (Growth!) During caveman times, you just moved to another valley to get away from any trouble in the clan and created a better life. Over time, the next valley became occupied and finding a place to get a better life became harder and harder. Now, all the next valleys are occupied. Growth can only occur at the expense of someone else. Can sustainability be achieved without growth, one of our inner driving force of survival? So ... when you ask "Which side are you on?" My answer is .... MY SIDE. Your answer is ... MY SIDE. EVERYONE SAYS "MY SIDE." Its not greed. Its not selfishness. Its the way we are made in order to survive. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3776
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I admit that I didn't take the time to read all the comments, so please forgive if I repeat.
The question is "which side are you on?" I'm on the side of my own survival. I am the 99.9%. Am I offended? No. Offense is only for those that understand that they are being offended. I am the 99.9% Raise an army to kill the elites? No, I'm not starving, nor can I see that happening. I am the 99.9%. I am selfish. I am the 99.9% I don't take risks. I am the 99.9% All the talk in the world about whether or not one or the other argument is right is simply a brain fart at this point. The 99.9% will never buy or act on the rhetoric. Lastly, none of the principles in this argument are ready for the reality and consequences of what they wish so boldly for. |
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months, 1 week ago #3778
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Although I'm perfectly comfortable with violence, I'm not sold on this Orkin Man idea.
In a complex modern society, it seems inevitable that some of the aspects of power are going to consolidate themselves into the hands of the few. Exterminating those few might not really make a difference as their replacements may well succumb to the same temptations and abuses of power. What seems to me to be of utmost important is simply holding the powerful accountable. Laws are the humane way of doing this. The threat of violence and the fear it can instill is a cruder but also effective measure. Nobody seems to care about the laws and rules anymore. And the elite having thoroughly shielded themselves from virtually any interaction with the hoi polloi, let alone anything that might be physically threatening or remotely violent. All of the non-violence/passive resistance talk is a bunch of crap because it cedes one of the best weapons in keeping the rich ruling elite honest, i.e., the risk of getting their head lopped off they abuse their privilege at the expense of others. Is it any wonder that the most powerful are so gluttonous these days when most of them feel literally untouchable? The balance is messed up. This is partially the fault of the elites but the masses also share some responsibility because we've been apathetic and let them get away with it. An exterminator isn't needed so much as a guillotine or two. If one had been parked outside Wall Street for the past 40 years perhaps the deterrence alone would have been enough to keep the greed in check. Probably a head should roll every few years anyway just to keep us all honest. Anyhow, it's probably best to blame Ghandi and his stupid ideas for today's financial/governance mess. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3779
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Basseterre Kitona wrote:
All of the non-violence/passive resistance talk is a bunch of crap because it cedes one of the best weapons in keeping the rich ruling elite honest, i.e., the risk of getting their head lopped off they abuse their privilege at the expense of others. Is it any wonder that the most powerful are so gluttonous these days when most of them feel literally untouchable? The balance is messed up. This is partially the fault of the elites but the masses also share some responsibility because we've been apathetic and let them get away with it. An exterminator isn't needed so much as a guillotine or two. If one had been parked outside Wall Street for the past 40 years perhaps the deterrence alone would have been enough to keep the greed in check. Probably a head should roll every few years anyway just to keep us all honest. Anyhow, it's probably best to blame Ghandi and his stupid ideas for today's financial/governance mess. Bravo. Couldn't have said it better myself. RE |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3782
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Basseterre Kitona wrote:
In a complex modern society, it seems inevitable that some of the aspects of power are going to consolidate themselves into the hands of the few. Exterminating those few might not really make a difference as their replacements may well succumb to the same temptations and abuses of power. I think it's more than that at this point, really. My #1 practical criticism of RE's plan from the first time I heard about it was not that it sounds like Stalin or Pol Pot (that's my #2 criticism), but that it sounds exactly like what THEY - TPTB, the NWO elites, the Illuminati, however you want to label them - would use to achieve their goals of global consolidation/control, unprecedented oppression and depopulation, right in front of the eyes of the ignorant masses. What better way than to convince the people that the NWO agenda is actually something that is constructed to destroy the NWO?? We will suddenly find out all of these "revealing" facts about the people who are supposedly at the highest levels of the Illuminati or whatever, and we will be made to think that anyone who is connected to them, via historical connections, belief structures, genealogy, genetics, whatever, must be dealt with as well. Because these will be the people who are "holding us back" from ridding humanity of the "evil forces" and evolving to some higher state of existence. It fit rights into RE's timeline, too, because first they would need a lot of majorly bad events to go down and a lot of people ready and willing to believe anything they are told about who is responsible. Kind of puts Mathew 7:15 quoted above in a whole new light. Something that should at least be considered anyway... |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3784
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ashvin wrote:
What better way than to convince the people that the NWO agenda is actually something that is constructed to destroy the NWO?? We will suddenly find out all of these "revealing" facts about the people who are supposedly at the highest levels of the Illuminati or whatever, and we will be made to think that anyone who is connected to them, via historical connections, belief structures, genealogy, genetics, whatever, must be dealt with as well. Because these will be the people who are "holding us back" from ridding humanity of the "evil forces" and evolving to some higher state of existence. It fit rights into RE's timeline, too, because first they would need a lot of majorly bad events to go down and a lot of people ready and willing to believe anything they are told about who is responsible. What's the argument here? We mistaken believe the Bilderbergers are connected to the Illuminati? The BIS is just a front and has nothing to do with the control of the global monetary system? The Rockefellers and Rothschilds are actually innocent victims of a propaganda smear? It would be wrong to put BP and TEPCO Executives on trial for Crimes Against Humanity? What? RE |
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3785
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@Reverse Engineer,
No matter how this thing shakes out, I am not judging you for the Orkin man approach. I think it has merit as long as the procedure is conducive to a sustainable society. Justification for violent behavior in the defense of innocents has always been a part of, not just human behavior, but many other animals as well. I just saw this video and I think this lady knows the score pretty well. How she continues to believe that the planet can be saved without violence is beyond me but, despite having been exposed to nearly 250,000 farmer suicides in India due to corporate depredation, she still sees a way. Her take on what constitutes an excess population is similar to mine. What do you think of her views? (anyone else here that would like to comment on this video, please do). |
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3786
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great debate, thanks people!
The problem within autocratic regimes was always the succession. Stalin's dead, Mao's gone, what do we do now? Democracy provided an excellent solution with the built-in guillotine. Once every X time, we get a chance to fire the whole lot of them. I must admit a sort of sympathy, even admiration (with a grudge) for guys like Cromwell, Robespierre, Lenin and Trotski. In a dispute, there can be a point where argument or debate does not any longer suffice. There is a moment where the only argument that we have left is violence. But natural justice demands a fair trial before such violence be meted out. I humbly propose we should maybe extend the logic of the democratic guillotine : what if any representative, senator, congressman, ceo, found wanting, voted out of office, guilty of coruption, should be immediately guillotined upon leaving office. Why not put some real risk into the games of power? Wouldn't that be a great incentive for good governance? And just imagine the show : The Public Trial, the March of Shame, and then the Vengeance of the People is carried out in Great Pomp. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3787
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I don't much quibble with your vision of what's coming. All this moral hand-wringing is going to seem quaint, if there are cannibals, fascists and dime-a-dozen bad dudes roaming the street. Character and integrity are required to deal with such things, not wrangling about morals or ethics. As to taking sides, I'm not on any effin side, that's just more bs Western oppositional dualism, one or the other unto death. As to not gettin' executed because I won't offer up unquestioning allegiance to anyone, ever, that's going to take some savvy maneuvering, but I've been preparing for that as long as I can remember.
www.offthegridmpls.blogspot.com |
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The following user(s) said Thank You: pansceptic
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3788
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You're not taking that bible crap seriously are you? Is this sarcasm, just your way of spiking the punch bowl!!!
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3791
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Permaculture tells us that energy always follows the pattern. The pattern described in this article is an old one in history. "Let's get even" is a popular game but it always ends the same way every time. If we want something different, we need a different pattern. I am really surprised that AE has printed this kind of doomer porn.
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3792
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@RE,
There's no need for you to be defensive. You make good points within the context you make them. Make the context clear, and demand others recognize the context when describing what you say. I've only encountered your writing recently, and I prefer to read your personal honesty any day to watching others hide behind somebody else's falsehood (i.e., organized religion). You're good folk (as much as I disagree with you). There is no such thing as "revealed" truth, only Plato's Noble Lie. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3793
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lukitas wrote:
great debate, thanks people! The problem within autocratic regimes was always the succession. Stalin's dead, Mao's gone, what do we do now? Democracy provided an excellent solution with the built-in guillotine. Once every X time, we get a chance to fire the whole lot of them. I must admit a sort of sympathy, even admiration (with a grudge) for guys like Cromwell, Robespierre, Lenin and Trotski. In a dispute, there can be a point where argument or debate does not any longer suffice. There is a moment where the only argument that we have left is violence. But natural justice demands a fair trial before such violence be meted out. Agreed. When the leadership stops listening to common sense, you have not only the right but the OBLIGATION to get rid of them. Jefferson wrote: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,[76] that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. If said folks consistently duck a peaceful change, they get what they ask for: I also have never been in favor of Justice being meted out without a Trial. It is JMHO that the laws need some rewriting and the Punishments should fit the Crimes. I humbly propose we should maybe extend the logic of the democratic guillotine : what if any representative, senator, congressman, ceo, found wanting, voted out of office, guilty of coruption, should be immediately guillotined upon leaving office. Why not put some real risk into the games of power? Wouldn't that be a great incentive for good governance? And just imagine the show : The Public Trial, the March of Shame, and then the Vengeance of the People is carried out in Great Pomp. I am quite certain that motivation for Honest Public Service would be far greater if at the end of each CONgressional Session you roll a few Heads just to keep the rest of them Honest. It doesn't have to be a lot, just a few of the worst offenders. I mean really, do you think the TEPCO Executives would have been nearly so careless with the Public Safety if they knew if they fucked up they would be required to commit Seppuku? Back in the old days before the Nips took on Western Moral Values they would have handled this thing correctly. RE |
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Last Edit: 11 months ago by Reverse Engineer.
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3794
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If it was just a thought experiment - then why did you not state this in the article? I guess you just like to troll.
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3795
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agelbert wrote:
@Reverse Engineer, No matter how this thing shakes out, I am not judging you for the Orkin man approach. I think it has merit as long as the procedure is conducive to a sustainable society. Nor do I hold any truck with you AB for your ideas here either. Just when the Conduits Fail, don't stand anywhere in the line of fire between the .50 Cal Baretts of the kids in my school and anybody on the Illuminati side of this conflict. Not gonna hole up out there in the Mountains while they still got Infrared detectors in the Apache Helicopter Gunships though. We'll wait until the Choppers are outta Gas. Not getting in any battle where we are that outmatched. We'll save the Ammo and Lay Low here for a while yet. When the time comes though, you gotta be ready for it. RE |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3796
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Reverse Engineer wrote:
What's the argument here? We mistaken believe the Bilderbergers are connected to the Illuminati? The BIS is just a front and has nothing to do with the control of the global monetary system? The Rockefellers and Rothschilds are actually innocent victims of a propaganda smear? It would be wrong to put BP and TEPCO Executives on trial for Crimes Against Humanity? What? RE Here's the potential scenario: Your reactionary Orkin (Wo)Man or Wo(men) are already waiting in the wings, prepped by the Illuminati and ready to go when given the green light, probably in some pretty influential positions within governments around the world, but by no means leaders yet. They will wait for some really bad stuff to go down, i.e. a monetary collapse, civil war, perhaps even international war, before these people will come to the rescue through force, probably a military coup led by a " radical left-wing" political faction. He or she will be a peacemaker of sorts, after violently overthrowing the current establishment. Perhaps it will happen in many different countries at the same time. The rhetoric and agenda will line up with what many people within both the "fringe" and mainstream populations already believe or are starting to believe (much of which will be at least partly true) - It will talk about corrupt central banks and evil Jewish bankers, corporate CEOs, Zionist war-mongers, vulture capitalists, etc. Basically pointing out how these people are responsible for the putrid state of socioeconomic affairs people find themselves in at that time. At this point the Illuminati will not hesitate to sacrifice a few scapegoats, like your Tepco or BP CEO or whoever is convenient, a few highly visible kleptocrats - just to prove to the rest of us that their motives are genuine. All the while, though, this new series of reactionary governments across the world will be coordinating with each other and planting the seeds for a truly globalist regime, i.e. one world government, one world religion, one world monetary system, one world everything. The people will already respect them for creating temporary peace and some economic stability, as well as exacting some very satisfying vengeance. The Illuminati would have completely convinced the opposition of the deception. Whether any of this will happen or how exactly it will go down, I have no idea. What I do know is that many of the psychological seeds for something like this have already been planted, through the memes present in the whole New Age Movement (which actually gets A LOT of mainstream attention), as well as your standard NWO crowd that often leans heavily towards anti-semitism. With regards to the former, their meme is that our ultimate salvation lies in some external force which will usher all of humanity into the "new age", where everyone is connected to everyone else and can become Divine creatures, and that those who cannot manage to get with the "Utopian" plan must be against it, i.e. agents of the straw man Illuminati, or just not spiritually strong enough, and will need to be taken care of. There is obviously a lot more going on with all of that stuff, but the basic agenda is straightforward. It's really a pretty simple deception when you think about it. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3797
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Tao Jonesing wrote:
@RE, There's no need for you to be defensive. You make good points within the context you make them. Make the context clear, and demand others recognize the context when describing what you say. I've only encountered your writing recently, and I prefer to read your personal honesty any day to watching others hide behind somebody else's falsehood (i.e., organized religion). You're good folk (as much as I disagree with you). There is no such thing as "revealed" truth, only Plato's Noble Lie. I don't think I am being defensive. IMHO, I am taking the Philosophical Battle here to the Enemy. Ashvin is pretty much like every Bible Thumper I ever met, just a good deal smarter than most of them. Arguing with him takes constant creativity and being light on your feet. This whole series of articles on DD and TAE all come from posting made on one thread El G started on Usury. Surly wrote his original Pol Pot post in that thread, and I suggested he turn that into a Feature Article by filling it out with some of the counter arguments, and then Ashvin chipped in he would repost on TAE long as he could set it up how he wanted. I thought Surly would write a comparative article, but instead he chose to flesh out his own perspective with it. So I then had to go ahead and rebut that one with Unforgiven. Ashvin then went and reconstructed both of those articles and added his own 2 cents to it. All fine and dandy here, but nobody just reading the post Ashvin constructed is getting the full picture here, and really you should go in and read the entire originating thread to have the most comprehensive view. Lots of stuff ended up on the cutting room floor in everybody's articles here. I don't EVER expect to get agreement on all this stuff from everyone, that Dog Won't Hunt. The purpose of the entire Thought Experiment is to flesh out all the parameters we face in this spin down, and I KNOW what the most common ideas are. So I think it out and then I take up the contrary position to the Common Wisdom. I lay it out as I understand History and overall History backs me up a whole lot better than it does Ashvin's arguments. I can't stand Knee Jerk reactions to these issues and Boiler Plate "Wisdom" coming off the pages of The Bible, which about nobody really follows in the real world anyhow except a few Saints now and then. Confronted by someone like Ashvin who considers this stuff to be the most consistent and well thought out Religious Philosophy of all Time, I got no choice here but to hammer down on all the reasons it doesn't WORK in reality, and never has. Anyhow, its a running battle here, and this is another one of them here on TAE. The Beat Goes On. RE |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3798
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ashvin wrote:
The rhetoric and agenda will line up with what many people within both the "fringe" and mainstream populations already believe or are starting to believe (much of which will be at least partly true) - It will talk about corrupt central banks and evil Jewish bankers, corporate CEOs, Zionist war-mongers, vulture capitalists, etc. Basically pointing out how these people are responsible for the putrid state of socioeconomic affairs people find themselves in at that time. At this point the Illuminati will not hesitate to sacrifice a few scapegoats, like your Tepco or BP CEO or whoever is convenient, a few highly visible kleptocrats - just to prove to the rest of us that their motives are genuine. Anybody who does that is OBVIOUSLY an Illuminati Tool. The only Orkin Man I would actually have some Faith in is one who put all 140 Bilderbergers in front of the Inquisition and sent every last one of them to the Great Beyond. A few Scapegoats does not Cut the Mustard here and identifies anyone who attempts this methodology as a tool of the Illuminati. A REAL Orkin Man would knock them ALL DOWN. If David Rockefeller, Nathan Rothschild, Henry Kissinger, George Soros Bill Gates, et al; all the major Stockholders and Board of Directors of Monsanto, Dupont, IBM, GE et al do not get a summons from the Auto da Fe to appear in front of the Inquisition, it is a FAKE and not to be believed. I do not think that the Bilderbergers are going to hire an Orkin Man who will exterminate ALL of them. This would be an extremely counter productive methodology from the Illuminati side of the Battle. RE |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3799
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Reverse Engineer wrote:
I don't think I am being defensive. IMHO, I am taking the Philosophical Battle here to the Enemy. Ashvin is pretty much like every Bible Thumper I ever met, just a good deal smarter than most of them. Arguing with him takes constant creativity and being light on your feet. Look, the fact is that these are philosophical/spiritual positions established LONG before you, I or Tao Jonesing were ever around. There are true Christians out there who think we are right now immersed in an ultimate battle of Good vs. Evil, just like you do, except the force they have on their side makes your rag tag group of wannabe Outlaw Josey Wales gunslingers look like little kids playing in a sandbox. Their battle spans the Heavens and the Earth and involves demons, angels, Satan, God, humans and everything else you can think of. Now you obviously will want to write all of these spiritual folk off as nutjobs who believe in fairy tales, but they are just as smart as you are and have spent years studying the exact same issues you have studied. They know all about the NWO and the Illuminati and the GFC and peak oil. They know everything there is to know about the Bible's alleged inconsistencies, contradictions, and flaws. None of that changes the underlying theological message and values conveyed, which in their eyes are infinitely more important than your Thought Experiments will ever be. The exact same thing can probably be said of Jews, Hindus and others who have been at the business of figuring shit out through experience, logic, critical thinking and faith for thousands of years. You are not special, RE, and neither am I. We are just two people who have our spins on history and reality and the future and the human experience, just like a whole lot of other very smart people out there. And, yes, that includes the "Bible-thumping nut jobs". Their ideas may offend your delicate materialist worldview, but that's your issue to overcome, not theirs. |
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Last Edit: 11 months ago by ashvin.
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3800
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ashvin wrote:
Look, the fact is that these are philosophical/spiritual positions established LONG before you, I or Tao Jonesing were ever around. There are true Christians out there who think we are right now immersed in an ultimate battle of Good vs. Evil, just like you do, except the force they have on their side makes your rag tag group of wannabe Outlaw Josey Wales gunslingers look like little kids playing in a sandbox. Their battle spans the Heavens and the Earth and involves demons, angels, Satan, God, humans and everything else you can think of. I'll put my kids up against these folks anytime. No more pussy footing around with this stuff. Name the place and time. Bring on the Gog and the Magog. Let's have it out here. Now you obviously will want to write all of these spiritual folk off as nutjobs who believe in fairy tales, but they are just as smart as you are and have spent years studying the exact same issues you have studied. They know all about the NWO and the Illuminati and the GFC and peak oil. They know everything there is to know about the Bible's alleged inconsistencies, contradictions, and flaws. None of that changes the underlying theological message and values conveyed, which in their eyes are infinitely more important than your Thought Experiments will ever be. JYHO Ashvin. MAYBE 1:1,000,000 is as smart as I am. That is what the testing says anyhow The exact same thing can probably be said of Jews, Hindus and others who have been at the business of figuring shit out through experience, logic, critical thinking and faith for thousands of years. You are not special, RE, and neither am I. We are just two people who have our spins on history and reality and the future and the human experience, just like a whole lot of other very smart people out there. And, yes, that includes the "Bible-thumping nut jobs". Their ideas may offend your delicate materialist worldview, but that's your issue to overcome, not theirs. Overcome it I will. I never quit. Just takes time, patience and a whole LOT of keyboarding to do it. Not to mention the Beer. RE www.doomsteaddiner.org |
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Last Edit: 11 months ago by Reverse Engineer.
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3805
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I found a glass slipper or maybe its a hat.
I think it might belong to one of the posters “Action Heroes” or writers for the plot line of "Continuum" Set in Vancouver British Columbia, the year is 2077, world governments have fallen and have been bought out by corporations leading to loss of privacy and basic rights. A group of fanatical terrorists, bent on getting freedom back at all costs, destroy multiple buildings killing 30,000 people while targeting 20 members of the Corporate Board. As the 7 terrorists are about to be executed they attempt an escape by being sent back in time 6 years instead being sent back 65 years to our time, 2012. What are the odds ... Kagame... ... reset of Liber8’s agenda. continuumtheseries.com/index/gallery/id/8 |
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Last Edit: 11 months ago by jal.
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3806
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Reverse Engineer wrote:
If David Rockefeller, Nathan Rothschild, Henry Kissinger, George Soros Bill Gates, et al; all the major Stockholders and Board of Directors of Monsanto, Dupont, IBM, GE et al do not get a summons from the Auto da Fe to appear in front of the Inquisition, it is a FAKE and not to be believed. No shit, Sherlock... The reality is that neither you nor I nor anyone else here will end up heading up a movement like OMMP. And, yeah, it will be painfully obvious to all of us when it actually happens that it is a deception, especially after we remember talking about that scenario in this thread... You will be especially enraged when it all happens and I can see you yelling at the top of your lungs, "The Illuminati stole my idea to get rid of them!!" But no one will listen or care at that point. This scenario is a much more realistic outcome for OMMP than the Idealistic one you posit in your arguments, which is part of the reason why I think we need to be vigilant to defend against those who seek to advocate or pursue it. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3809
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I'll put my kids up against these folks anytime. No more pussy footing around with this stuff. OK RE, I'll go down this line of thinking with you a little bit. Basically what you've been doing here in re: spirituality is what you vociferously accused me of doing in that one thread awhile ago - ridiculing someone for having "radical" ideas. Except, I actually did some research on Icke and his theories before I started ridiculing him. Have you really looked into the details of Bible, in terms of historical descriptions, inter-Biblical consistency and, most importantly, theological messaging? We're talking about a set of the most comprehensive and consistent (yet also complex) ancient documents ever written down, copied and transmitted. Parts of the Dead Sea Scrolls from the OT date all the way back to 380 BCE. There are are plenty of Biblical Scholars out there who are not Christian or Jewish, RE. I'm sure they could provide you plenty of fodder for your critiques of the Bible and the Christian Faith, but you have to actually do the research before you are justified in ridicule (and none of them really end up "ridiculing" it anyway). And I guarantee that research will raise a lot more questions for you before they raise a lot more answers, but that's just the nature of the beast. I find it hilarious that so many "liberal progressive" types these days dismiss the Bible off-hand as looney tunes without bothering to study it in the least, but unconditionally accept other historical/philisophical accounts written by the Ancient Greeks and Romans during the SAME time period, ones that are less preserved and less consistent between copies. Hilarious, but also an unsurprising reflection of the lazy armchair-opinionated "scholarship" that passes for critical thinking these days. Many of these people also claim to actually believe in some type of God or higher plane of existence, and adopt all kinds of Eastern spirituality into their "beliefs" in the process. So, in essence, they are claiming to have some generalized belief in all kinds of things derived from ancient spirituality, but refuse to commit to any specific beliefs that are actually found in the ancient texts in which that spirituality has been meticulously defined. So there is no YHWH or Satan, but there is a higher power that influences all manner of human activities on Earth. There is no Vishnu or Bramha or Shiva, but there are some generalized Lords of Karma and a nearly infinite process of soul reincarnation. But when it comes to analyzing Earthly situations, those belief structures don't have any applicability because they have been generalized and diluted to point of being meaningless, so they are not even really "beliefs" at all. It's ridiculous and it makes no common sense. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3811
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ashvin wrote:
Reverse Engineer wrote: If David Rockefeller, Nathan Rothschild, Henry Kissinger, George Soros Bill Gates, et al; all the major Stockholders and Board of Directors of Monsanto, Dupont, IBM, GE et al do not get a summons from the Auto da Fe to appear in front of the Inquisition, it is a FAKE and not to be believed. No shit, Sherlock... The reality is that neither you nor I nor anyone else here will end up heading up a movement like OMMP. And, yeah, it will be painfully obvious to all of us when it actually happens that it is a deception, especially after we remember talking about that scenario in this thread... You will be especially enraged when it all happens and I can see you yelling at the top of your lungs, "The Illuminati stole my idea to get rid of them!!" But no one will listen or care at that point. This scenario is a much more realistic outcome for OMMP than the Idealistic one you posit in your arguments, which is part of the reason why I think we need to be vigilant to defend against those who seek to advocate or pursue it. Ashvin, you nailed it. The rest is all "sound and fury, signifying nothing." |
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3814
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There are several objections to the “Orkin solution” as proposed here and some have been expressed above. The metaphor of “pests” to be “cleansed” is abhorrent and reeks of eugenics. One problem with this path is that you can’t get them all. You can never get them all. This is because the characteristics you are trying to get rid of are in all of us. That’s right – ALL of us. Never mind that innocents will be killed as well. Some day the deciders and the planners and the executors of the Orkin plan will be tried and convicted and they themselves will be killed by others who have decided (at long last when they have re-invented law) that they committed crimes against humanity. This will be the right thing to do since those who perpetrated this violence will have lost their humanity by then, by killing others whom they had deemed to have lost their humanity. Societies have always claimed the right to kill members who violate the rules (laws) but it’s a decision taken by the society, not a few individuals.
Our species is overrunning its habitat and biology is kicking in. Billions will die and we don’t have to help it along. I am convinced that the Orkin moment will happen as described, but I did not expect to see the manifesto published on TAE. It seems to be what people do when things get too complex. Ian Welsh has a post up about this and one commenter said, “I knew you would write this.” Some above have said that we should leave it to god. I say leave it to biology, but yes, this Orkin impulse is genetic and therefore biological. In the 1990’s I heard an interview with the man who invented nitrogen fertilizer and caused the “green revolution” as it was called in the 1950’s. He said the invention saved 5 million people from starvation. The interviewer said that due to soil depletion caused by the use of the fertilizer, now we face 50 million people starving to death. Was it worth it? He answered yes. I say no. The Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski, wrote about all of this in his work, but no one paid attention and he decided to kill some people to get his work known. Have you read his stuff? I bet you would agree with it. There’s a good article on him in a recent Chronicle of Higher Education, called “The Unabomber’s Pen Pal.” What line did he cross, in your opinion? Our technical solutions, including Orkin, will make matters worse, not better. Let biology crash the species. If it includes me, and it will because I’m old, that’s fine. Jared Diamond argues that even agriculture was a mistake. Any technique that allows some people to produce enough food to feed more than their own families causes: religion, formal leadership, soldiers, war, guns, germs and steel. What exactly was wrong with hunting and gathering? We are animals and we should live like it. If we did, then famines, natural disasters, accidents, epidemics, etc. would control the population and we can be in balance with the rest of the planet. It seems humans cannot resist messing with success. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3815
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The Truth and Reconcilliation Commission was indeed a shining example for humanity; if we could achieve the same in the US as its empire unravels, that would indeed be perfect. Perfect is an important word there: conditions in South Africa were about as perfect as humanity can get...Mandella had paid his dues, the industrialized world was still enjoying the peace and plenty of increasing net energy, and the international community was watching and encouraging the process. Once things get ugly in the US, probably none of those conditions will be present at the time.
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3816
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Jal, I'm currently also thinking along the lines DNA being a big part of humanity's problems.
Selco, who writes a blog about his experiences during the seige of Kosovo, made a discovery that truly horrified me. He learned that one of his neighbors, who seemed like a 'regular guy', turned out to be a psychopath who was delighted that the anarchy allowed him to behave the way he had always want to. The neighbor joined a self-organized gang that stole whatever they could from the weak and vulnerable, kidnapped women for repeated rape, and generally enjoyed terrorizing anyone else who didn't happen to have something they wanted. This neighbor suggested that Selco join them, saying this would be his golden opportunity to "do what he had always wanted to do"! I've also read recently that some social scientists estimated that about 10% of Americans qualify as psychopaths but are mostly kept in check by social pressure and a system of laws and enforcement. Is this situation due to the basic sickness of American society, or is that a typical distribution based on genetic predisposition? I would sure support an Orkin Man who could take this segment of the population out of the gene pool; they are the ones who are drawn like moths to positions of economic, political, or religious power so they can do "what they always wanted to do". Before yall grind on me about eugenics, try to keeep in mind this is a forum for inquiry, not a call to action! |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3817
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pansceptic wrote:
Jal, I'm currently also thinking along the lines DNA being a big part of humanity's problems. This neighbor suggested that Selco join them, saying this would be his golden opportunity to "do what he had always wanted to do"! // I would sure support an Orkin Man who could take this segment of the population out of the gene pool; they are the ones who are drawn like moths to positions of economic, political, or religious power so they can do "what they always wanted to do". I think my article--not RE's-- points out that is precisely this sort of psychopath who self-anoints as "The Orkin Man." When law and order break down, you may rest assured it will be the psychopaths, many uniformed police among them, who will terrorize the countryside. Who will stop them? To what extent will we go to stop them? As to a basic sickness in (American) or western society, I was moved by a reference to "wetiko," or cannibal culture encountered in Thom Hartmann's book "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight." The natives watched in wonder as the whites consumed everything they encountered, like so many locusts in a wheat field, or ants stripping a carcass. Ultimately, it is the "unlimited growth" paradigm that is at the heart of the sickness that afflicts our souls. The ability to store surplus starts with agriculture; perhaps Jared Diamond was right. RE and others mock the Bible and Christian tenets, which is their prerogative. Organized religion makes it easy; barely a week goes by without some loudmouth fundy making mock of what the Prince of Peace actually is attributed to have said. I am reminded of what Gandhi said about Christianity: "I like your Christ very much. Your Christians are not very much like your Christ." Sez it all. I try to live and make moral choices in some nodding acquaintance with what Jesus said. And he did indeed say, "Give us THIS day our daily bread." Flies right in the face of the unlimited growth paradigm, from where I sit. |
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The following user(s) said Thank You: pansceptic
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3818
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Ashvin, I can understand why the concept of NWO/Illuminati is attractive - after all, isn't it more reassuring to believe that at least SOMEONE is in control, even if they are evil geniuses? What if the more frightening reality is that there's really just a loose confederation of psychopaths, driven by individual greed, lust for power, and short-sighted decision making?
Regarding the NWO, the USA did not spend all that money on weapons sytems and bases just to let some other organization rule the world. If there is a world government, as long as that military machine is functional it sure as hell won't be headquartered ANYWHERE other than the US. Functionally the US empire is the NWO; its reach is truly global. It operates on the neo-colonial model: we don't waste our time trying to physically occupy countries with resources, we just set up our puppets to collect and forward the tribute to the US. There was a damned good reason Osama Bin Laden had to be taken out; he was a pretty effective Orkin Man. He correcty observed that Manahatten is the capitol of the present Evil Empire (TM), and shot it right in the head when he took out the "World Trade Center". |
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3821
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@goldOxen--you said, "Your good intentions are noted and most appreciated. My personal opinion is that RE has gone off the deep end with this one, and both you and Surly, being among the brightest and respected bulbs in our meeting places, have given substance and legitimacy to this Orkin Man madness buy treating it seriously. "
As you are well aware, there is no anonymity on the internet, but there is a huge amount of censorship. Most of the controversial stuff you read is for a purpose other than the stated one. In particular, most (if not all) sites like this one are for the purpose of getting Timothy McVeigh types to out themselves to the FBI/CIA/Illuminati. You can't for one instant think these guys are serious do you? When you see someone posting racist views, such as anti-negro or anti-jew, you can bet it is someone protecting the President or the Jewish Anti-defamation league trying to get hatemongers to out themselves publicly. The internet is not an exercise in freedom. As someone involved in experimental farming research, I can tell you that there is no way I could do my research without the net. Same with ordering the best pizza in a strange town. But that is garden variety information. The only way this discussion is legit is if they are posting from a cell at Gitmo, lol....... |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3822
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pansceptic wrote:
I would sure support an Orkin Man who could take this segment of the population out of the gene pool; they are the ones who are drawn like moths to positions of economic, political, or religious power so they can do "what they always wanted to do". Well, I don't want to "grind you" here, but what you are describing IS Eugenics and IS exactly one major fear that I have with any Orkin Man Master Plan that ends up coming onto the scene. It is relatively easy for a deceptive force to conjure up about false information/data about this "genetic predisposition" to evil and who or who may not have it. If you can actually point me towards some legitimate scientific studies that have isolated psychopathic tendencies to parts of the human genome, then we have something to talk about. If not, then we are engaged in pure, baseless speculation and it is potentially very dangerous speculation at that. What if the more frightening reality is that there's really just a loose confederation of psychopaths, driven by individual greed, lust for power, and short-sighted decision making? Regardless of how you want to label them, Illuminati or "loose confederation", I think it is undeniable that there are relatively few people who have concentrated most of the world's wealth and exercise a good deal of control over political, economic, cultural systems. I do not believe these people were destined to occupy this role because of their genetics, because the evidence for that simply isn't there. If we want to general descriptive labels, I like the one "deceptive force", because that's what they ultimately do - deceive us for their own selfish goals. The U.S. MIC is no doubt a key part of this force. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3823
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Surly1 wrote:
RE and others mock the Bible and Christian tenets, which is their prerogative. Organized religion makes it easy; barely a week goes by without some loudmouth fundy making mock of what the Prince of Peace actually is attributed to have said. I am reminded of what Gandhi said about Christianity: "I like your Christ very much. Your Christians are not very much like your Christ." Sez it all. I try to live and make moral choices in some nodding acquaintance with what Jesus said. And he did indeed say, "Give us THIS day our daily bread." Flies right in the face of the unlimited growth paradigm, from where I sit. Yeah, and even the OT God as well. The Israelites were given/shown "manna" during their journey through the Desert, but were instructed only to take what they could consume in one day, because any surplus "bred worms and stank". I think this can be taken literally and symbolically. With the latter, the surplus is being associated with the evil that breeds in humanity when they are tempted by materialist desires, above and beyond those necessary for physical survival. I don't think it is a completely unavoidable outcome, since we ultimately have free will no matter what kind of surplus is present, but the Test of that will becomes exponentially greater. Generally and unfortunately, we have failed these tests over and over again throughout history... |
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Last Edit: 11 months ago by ashvin.
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3825
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If it is a choice between the Orkin Man and Bryan Stevenson, I would take the latter every time.
I recommend that you check out this TED video: www.karmatube.org/videos.php?id=3072 |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3826
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ashvin wrote:
No shit, Sherlock... The reality is that neither you nor I nor anyone else here will end up heading up a movement like OMMP. And, yeah, it will be painfully obvious to all of us when it actually happens that it is a deception, especially after we remember talking about that scenario in this thread... You will be especially enraged when it all happens and I can see you yelling at the top of your lungs, "The Illuminati stole my idea to get rid of them!!" But no one will listen or care at that point. This scenario is a much more realistic outcome for OMMP than the Idealistic one you posit in your arguments, which is part of the reason why I think we need to be vigilant to defend against those who seek to advocate or pursue it. This is Elementary, my dear Watson. Whether your deduction is the more realistic scenario or not is open to conjecture, but the fact is that if it does indeed play out that way it is NOT the OMMP, it is then the IMP, Illuminati Master Plan. The significant DIFFERENCE between these two plans is who ends up DEAD here. In the OMMP, it is mostly Illuminati who end up dead (by percentage, not absolute numbers of course since they represent only .01% of the total population). In the IMP, mostly J6Ps end up dead. Given the Morton's Fork choice here that it is going to go one way or the other, Sherlock here picks the OMMP. You set yourself up for that one Watson. You are without doubt the best Straight Man I ever got to throw the Punch Line at. Sherlock RE |
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Last Edit: 11 months ago by Reverse Engineer.
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3828
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Surly1 wrote:
RE and others mock the Bible and Christian tenets, which is their prerogative. This is again an incomplete characterization of my thinking Surly. I mock EVERYTHING which Home Sapiens has come up with as a solution to existential problems since first purposefully planting Millet. Before that we were doing OK. Like Don Rickles, you can't call me a bigot because I make fun of EVERYBODY. As you say though, Bible Thumpers make it easy, because about none of them except a few Saints follow directives like "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also." WTF does that in a cold climate? You would freeze to death in minutes in the Winter here in Alaska if you did that. Its nuts. This is why Saints invariably end up dead. RE |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3829
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ashvin wrote:
There are are plenty of Biblical Scholars out there who are not Christian or Jewish, RE. I'm sure they could provide you plenty of fodder for your critiques of the Bible and the Christian Faith, but you have to actually do the research before you are justified in ridicule (and none of them really end up "ridiculing" it anyway). And I guarantee that research will raise a lot more questions for you before they raise a lot more answers, but that's just the nature of the beast. Where is it Written that you have to do "research" to elucidate the Truth? If I am sitting under a tree and an Apple plops on my head, do I need to do research to know that apples always fall down after disengaging from trees they grow on? They NEVER fall UP. I do of course need a math background to work up a symbolic representation of how fast they accelerate, but I don't need to do a hell of a lot of research past that already contained in First Principles I already learned or figured out over time. If there was a lot of variance in how Homo Sapiens behaves in conditions like we are working our way into here it would be problematic, but there isn't much variance. That a Peaceful Solution with everyone Turning the Other Cheek is going to occur here is Unlikely in the EXTREMIS. Given that knowledge, then if you want to engineer a Good Outcome, you figure out how the Variables work in the Violent solutons that always ARE actually taken. Apples ALWAYS fall down Ashvin, and Homo Sapiens ALWAYS reacts violently when confronted with life threatening situations such as Starvation and violent oppression. You can't make Apples fall up Ashvin. RE |
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Last Edit: 11 months ago by Reverse Engineer.
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3830
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[quote="Reverse Engineer" post=3829]ashvin wrote:
Where is it Written that you have to do "research" to elucidate the Truth? If I am sitting under a tree and an Apple plops on my head, do I need to do research to know that apples always fall down after disengaging from trees they grow on? They NEVER fall UP. I do of course need a math background to work up a symbolic representation of how fast they accelerate, but I don't need to do a hell of a lot of research past that already contained in First Principles I already learned or figured out over time. If there was a lot of variance in how Homo Sapiens behaves in conditions like we are working our way into here it would be problematic, but there isn't much variance. That a Peaceful Solution with everyone Turning the Other Cheek is going to occur here is Unlikely in the EXTREMIS. Given that knowledge, then if you want to engineer a Good Outcome, you figure out how the Variables work in the Violent solutons that always ARE actually taken. Apples ALWAYS fall down Ashvin, and Homo Sapiens ALWAYS reacts violently when confronted with life threatening situations such as Starvation and violent oppression. You can't make Apples fall up Ashvin. RE I don't have much time right now, but let me just make two points in response really quickly here: 1) Gotta love when people reference the silly idea that deep thinkers like Newton discovered some form of Truth by having an apple fall on his head. It only seems that way in our post-scientific worldview when we look back hundreds of years... in reality, it takes a lot more mental effort and, yes, research/collaboration with others. 2) Do you not see the ass backwards logic you are using? On one hand, you claim that only very few people have actually been able to stick to true Christian principles over the years (something I would agree with), and the other hand you say that we therefore need to abandon those principles and keep doing the same shit we have been doing for thousands of years, which has ALWAYS resulted in bad outcomes and has brought us exactly to where we are today. You want to turn all of humanity into violent robots and, I'm very glad to break it you RE, but you are dead wrong about that. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3831
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ashvin wrote:
1) Gotta love when people reference the silly idea that deep thinkers like Newton discovered some form of Truth by having an apple fall on his head. It only seems that way in our post-scientific worldview when we look back hundreds of years... in reality, it takes a lot more mental effort and, yes, research/collaboration with others. Bullshit. The smartest guys I ever met were nerds who locked themselves in their dorm rooms and never talked to anybody except maybe the Voices in their own heads like John Nash. In a lecture he gave when I was back there in Academia, Richard Feynman answered a question from yours truly on where he got his insights, and he said he stopped thinking about what everybody else had figured out and started up from the few things he was sure enough of to go with. I will add here Feynman was probably the funniest guy EVER to walk the halls of Academia. 2) Do you not see the ass backwards logic you are using? On one hand, you claim that only very few people have actually been able to stick to true Christian principles over the years (something I would agree with), and the other hand you say that we therefore need to abandon those principles and keep doing the same shit we have been doing for thousands of years, which has ALWAYS resulted in bad outcomes and has brought us exactly to where we are today. You want to turn all of humanity into violent robots and, I'm very glad to break it you RE, but you are dead wrong about that. Even if you DO postulate that what we SHOULD do is try to make Apples fall Up here, they won't do that Ashvin. I am not going to "to turn all of humanity into violent robots", violent robots is what they ALWAYS become when confronted with life threatening circumstances. What brought us to where we are today is not the violent tendencies of Homo Sapiens, we are no different from the rest of the Animal Kingdom in that way and they do just fine overall. What got us to this point was first the Peaceful Occupation of Planting Millet and then the massive skew in Power Distribution that evolved from that. The unceasing Inventiveness of our species also contributed greatly to this problem, finding ever more ways to rapidly consume the resources of Mother Earth. Now we are FORCED into REVERSE ENGINEERING our way back out of this 10 millenia long MISTAKE, and TRUST ME on this, it will NOT happen peacefully. I GUARANTEE IT. RE |
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Holmes vs Watson 11 months ago #3833
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I have added a New Link on the DD Newz Page for Holmes-Watson Debates between myself and Ashvin. If you want to follow the endless rounds of this keyboard brawl whether they occur here on TAE or on DD, this link will take you to the latest venue for the Thrilla in Doomervilla. Down Goes Frazier! Down Goes Frazier! RE |
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Re: Holmes vs Watson 11 months ago #3837
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RE,
I don't think there's much left to debate down this spiritual road. You are convinced that spiritual truths have zero application to human dynamics in the "real world", and you are unwilling to do any research about the spiritual perspectives and principles that you casually dismiss. All of the evil you see happening now and in the future is exactly the same evils that those of faith see, but they have fundamentally different explanations for why it is here and therefore fundamentally different views on what we can do about it. You and I will say that we knew all this stuff was coming down the pipeline for years, and they will say "oh really? well half this crap was prophesied in the Bible 2000 years ago, and in some cases even earlier..." Even you like to quote Revelation 18 as being relevant to how monetary collapse would go down today. If you still can't understand why their faith is critical to what they think is an acceptable course of action and also what they believe will happen in the future, both to them personally and the world as a whole, then there's nothing more I can say to make you understand that. You think they're wrong, they think they're right, and I think they are a lot more right than you are. That's all there is to it. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3838
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Reverse Engineer wrote:
This is Elementary, my dear Watson. Whether your deduction is the more realistic scenario or not is open to conjecture, but the fact is that if it does indeed play out that way it is NOT the OMMP, it is then the IMP, Illuminati Master Plan. The significant DIFFERENCE between these two plans is who ends up DEAD here. In the OMMP, it is mostly Illuminati who end up dead (by percentage, not absolute numbers of course since they represent only .01% of the total population). In the IMP, mostly J6Ps end up dead. Given the Morton's Fork choice here that it is going to go one way or the other, Sherlock here picks the OMMP. I thought the whole point of this "thought experiment" of yours was to see what types of economic and sociopolitical dynamics will realistically happen in upcoming years? We would all choose OMMP if we knew how to do it in a perfect way and one that is in harmony with our personal beliefs/values. But, REALISTICALLY, we know that there are a dime a dozen problematic issues wrapped up in this thing, and I am just pointing out to you one of the major ones that I see. And I know I'm not the only one, because other people have mentioned how it could be co-opted by the Illuminati and what not. I am simply taking that logic a step further and positing that it may already be a part of THEIR master plan to deceive the masses (as always) and warm them up to their faux Orkin Man. If that is true (and I maintain that it is a much more likely outcome than your OMMP with truly righteous intentions), then we are simply playing into their hands when we advocate for it. We are helping to sow and water the psychological seeds that they would like to see fully grown. |
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Last Edit: 11 months ago by ashvin.
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3839
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ashvin wrote:
I thought the whole point of this "thought experiment" of yours was to see what types of economic and sociopolitical dynamics will realistically happen in upcoming years? No, if you read what Surly has written in this thread and I write all the time, the purpose of the Thought Experiment is to SAVE AS MANY AS YOU CAN. The principle is thus: We are faced with a Die Off of astounding proportions, at LEAST 50% of the population is going to the Great Beyond here no matter WHAT we do. As I work it out in the TE, if we do not get rid of the vermin running this show, this Die Off is going to be 90% and quite possibly 100%, aka an EXTINCTION LEVEL EVENT. Bold and Caps together doesn't emphasize this enough. We are at serious risk of the END of Human Sentience. If you value Biblical Morality more than that maybe you risk this, but I do not so highly value morality which makes little sense in this world. "Go Forth and Multiply?" WTF? That is the LAST thing we need to do these days. My moral principle here is to Save as Many as I Can. We would all choose OMMP if we knew how to do it in a perfect way and one that is in harmony with our personal beliefs/values. But, REALISTICALLY, we know that there are a dime a dozen problematic issues wrapped up in this thing, and I am just pointing out to you one of the major ones that I see. And I know I'm not the only one, because other people have mentioned how it could be co-opted by the Illuminati and what not. I am simply taking that logic a step further and positing that it may already be a part of THEIR master plan to deceive the masses (as always) and warm them up to their faux Orkin Man. If that is true (and I maintain that it is a much more likely outcome than your OMMP with truly righteous intentions), then we are simply playing into their hands when we advocate for it. We are helping to sow and water the psychological seeds that they would like to see fully grown. Clearly not everyone would choose the OMMP no matter what, that is what you yourself argue all the time. You argue that some principles are so inviolable that in fact it might be better to let ourselves go EXTINCT than to violate them. I am fully aware of all the risks involved here in any kind of Plan to Manage Death, either Illuminati generated in an IMP or J6P generated in an OMMP. What I am quite certain of now though is that SOMEBODY is going to be managing this Death and the battle before us is all about WHO gets to do the managing here. Most often through history the Illuminati have been the Managers, but not 100% of the time. Evidence of that is in the Reign of Terror of Robespierre and the fact Nicholas and Alexandra Romanoff were filled full of LEAD in a Ruskie Basement and Marie Antoinette's HEAD went rolling down the Champs d'Elysee like a Bowling Ball. The Elite do not manage the death so well 100% of the time, and occassionally they DO get the short end of the stick here. This is one of those times we have to make sure J6P runs the Death Show, not the Illuminati. In fact there is probably no time in all of recorded history when this was more important, because never before has the risk on the other side been the complete and total anhilliation of the human species, along with probably all other life forms above the level of the Tardigrades. If we do NOT step up to the plate here and take control of this, then we are in fact going to be responsible for our own extinction. I for one am not in favor of that, so I run my TEs to find a WAY OUT. I don't like what I see as the only road out here anymore than you do Ashvin, but it is a Morton's Fork. The signpost up ahead says Mass Death to the left and Extinction to the right. I will go left here. I don't think there's much left to debate down this spiritual road. You are convinced that spiritual truths have zero application to human dynamics in the "real world", and you are unwilling to do any research about the spiritual perspectives and principles that you casually dismiss. All of the evil you see happening now and in the future is exactly the same evils that those of faith see, but they have fundamentally different explanations for why it is here and therefore fundamentally different views on what we can do about it. You and I will say that we knew all this stuff was coming down the pipeline for years, and they will say "oh really? well half this crap was prophesied in the Bible 2000 years ago, and in some cases even earlier..." Even you like to quote Revelation 18 as being relevant to how monetary collapse would go down today. If you still can't understand why their faith is critical to what they think is an acceptable course of action and also what they believe will happen in the future, both to them personally and the world as a whole, then there's nothing more I can say to make you understand that. You think they're wrong, they think they're right, and I think they are a lot more right than you are. That's all there is to it. No, that is NOT all there is to it. I understand well enough why people have faiths of varying sorts, and I understand also well enough IMHO the Christian Faith also. The problem with about all of these faiths in a world of serious overshoot is they have limited applicability if you want to Save as Many as You Can. I don't think all those folks who generated up these Faiths were "wrong" in their assumptions when the world was new and resources seemed limitless. Conditions have changed here now though, and for much the same reason that the monetary system we run based on growth will not work, so also the "truths" many hold near and dear to their moral center ALSO will not work. People do not let go of truths they think are universal very easily, only really when personal survival becomes the name of the game are such truths really tested vor veracity. A few souls will hold onto their truths right to the bitter end, and get Nailed to a Cross for it. The fact they will do that is quite remarkable, but it doesn't make them Right all the time either. RE |
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Last Edit: 11 months ago by Reverse Engineer.
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3842
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These days to oppose government by corporation is to be labelled a terrorist. Bt not opposing the pillage, the torture,the mercanaries,the environmental degradation,the confiscation of national treasures/assets one could be labelled a collaborator.
As I read of the growing hunger and homelessness in many parts of the world I think of the intentional policies of both Russia and Germany to eliminate millions by starvation. Deciding where I stand is not easy when the enemy is now within.There is blood on my hands if I resist, there is blood on my hands if I comply. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3843
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scandia wrote:
These days to oppose government by corporation is to be labelled a terrorist. Bt not opposing the pillage, the torture,the mercanaries,the environmental degradation,the confiscation of national treasures/assets one could be labelled a collaborator. As I read of the growing hunger and homelessness in many parts of the world I think of the intentional policies of both Russia and Germany to eliminate millions by starvation. Deciding where I stand is not easy when the enemy is now within.There is blood on my hands if I resist, there is blood on my hands if I comply. Precisely the point I hoped to address by what I wrote in the article above, now obscured by the haze of battle between Ashvin and RE: "There is a reason that we are taught from a very early age, 'vengeance is mine saith the Lord, ' 'Thou shalt not kill,' and other Biblical admonishments against the taking of life. It could be that this ancient wisdom recalls that wielding the tools of vengeance is simply above the pay grade of us mere mortals. On the other hand, psychopaths recognize no such compunction. But the question remains: what do we do, what action should we take at a time when psychopaths have commandeered the engines of government and commerce, economic or rate with complete impunity and beyond the reach of such justice as still remains? We are thus faced with an untenable situation: if any one of us were to put on the Pol Pot T shirt, we would find ourselves in a similar situation, fraught with awful decisions and tinged by paranoia, regions of the mind visited by Joseph Conrad." And if we fail to act, we are collaborators. Thus the question, "Which Side Are You On" becomes fraught with existential angst. IN preparing my essay, I overlooked the recent Rwanda genocide, an "Orkin Man" episode if ever there were one. Between April and June 1994, an estimated 800,000 Rwandans were killed in the space of 100 days. Most of the dead were Tutsis - and most of those who perpetrated the violence were Hutus. An African example of the "ethnic cleansing" card, also recently played in Serbia and Kosovo upon the breakup of Yugoslavia. Even for Rwanda, the scale and speed of the slaughter left its people reeling. Here is hoping that none of us have to answer the question or the call, "Are you for us or against us?" when the Orkin Man comes to call. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3844
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Reverse Engineer wrote:
We are at serious risk of the END of Human Sentience. If you value Biblical Morality more than that maybe you risk this, but I do not so highly value morality which makes little sense in this world. "Go Forth and Multiply?" WTF? That is the LAST thing we need to do these days. My moral principle here is to Save as Many as I Can. You really need to stop quoting everything from the Bible completely out of context as if that has any meaning. Who does that? No one ever does that for any written or oral statement they are trying to attack, EXCEPT if it is found within a spiritual text. I am going to do it to you now just to show you how ridiculous it is: RE wrote: The collateral damage here is going to be ENORMOUS, beyond any scale ever in all of Recorded History. This is one of those times we have to make sure J6P runs the Death Show... I'll put my kids up against these folks anytime. No more pussy footing around with this stuff. Bring 'em on TAE, I will take them ALL on. Damn, RE, sounds like you really want to start some kind of Fourth Reich here and exterminate ALL of us... and you're gonna make your kids do the dirty work!! What kind of maniac are you?? Clearly not everyone would choose the OMMP no matter what, that is what you yourself argue all the time. You argue that some principles are so inviolable that in fact it might be better to let ourselves go EXTINCT than to violate them. The key words in that statement were... "if we knew how to do it in a perfect way and one that is in harmony with our personal beliefs/values No, that is NOT all there is to it. I understand well enough why people have faiths of varying sorts, and I understand also well enough IMHO the Christian Faith also. The problem with about all of these faiths in a world of serious overshoot is they have limited applicability if you want to Save as Many as You Can. I don't think all those folks who generated up these Faiths were "wrong" in their assumptions when the world was new and resources seemed limitless. Conditions have changed here now though, and for much the same reason that the monetary system we run based on growth will not work, so also the "truths" many hold near and dear to their moral center ALSO will not work. People do not let go of truths they think are universal very easily, only really when personal survival becomes the name of the game are such truths really tested vor veracity. A few souls will hold onto their truths right to the bitter end, and get Nailed to a Cross for it. The fact they will do that is quite remarkable, but it doesn't make them Right all the time either. You may think you understand WHY people have various faiths and what exactly those faiths entail, but I don't think you really do, based on your numerous misrepresentations of the most popularized (and bastardized) one in Western culture - the Christian faith. Here's an example of quoting something in context from the Bible: Mathew6.5-15 wrote: And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. 9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11Give us this day our daily bread. 12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Right, Jesus recognized all of these things before you and I ever did - that many people would begin practicing the faith as hypocrites and throw out trite nuggets of His wisdom from time to time. But He told His true believers not to do that, and to always remember when they pray in solace - "Our Father which art in heaven... Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in Earth, as it is in Heaven" and "...if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses". Do you not see how this prayer informs all aspects of a true believer's thoughts and actions in this world? What they believe can be accomplished through their faith? Why would they go against what is told to them by someone who they believe to be the Messiah prophesied in the OT, not necessarily without good reason, and give all that up for the OMMP? Your very premise that humanity faces inevitable extinction without the OMMP is ridiculous in their minds, and, no, they are not ignoring the evidence that you are considering. Like I said before, they realize all the evil being perpetrated today, and the various economic, social, environmental and militaristic calamities we face across the world. That actually gives them even MORE confidence in their faith. But this is why I think the spiritual thing is a dead end with you, because you refuse to research their views and accurately portray their beliefs, and THEN take them to task for what you think they got wrong. And I don't really expect you to take a bunch of time out of your life to do something like that, but I do expect you to acknowledge that there are well-established perspectives out there that will arrive at completely different conclusions about what we need to do when faced with all the current Evil that we are faced with. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3845
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Surly1 wrote:
scandia wrote: There is blood on my hands if I resist, there is blood on my hands if I comply. Precisely the point I hoped to address by what I wrote in the article above, now obscured by the haze of battle between Ashvin and RE: I apologize for that haze, because I do agree with your guys' underlying point that most people are facing very tough choices here either way. Although, that does remind me of something a very good poker player taught me (paraphrased) - "The best players aren't great because they make lot of tough choices correctly when playing their hands, but rather because they play their hands in ways that allow them to avoid making tough choices down the line". That may not make a lot of sense if you are unfamiliar with poker, but it really applies to life in general. The whole point of this debate for me is really to analytically flesh out the issues involved in these tough scenarios, so we may be fortunate enough to figure out exactly what "side we are on" and why BEFORE those tough choices actually present themselves. Then, the choices won't be so tough anymore. |
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Last Edit: 11 months ago by ashvin.
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3846
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ashvin wrote:
Surly1 wrote: scandia wrote: There is blood on my hands if I resist, there is blood on my hands if I comply. Precisely the point I hoped to address by what I wrote in the article above, now obscured by the haze of battle between Ashvin and RE: I apologize for that haze, because I do agree with your guys' underlying point that most people are facing very tough choices here either way. Although, that does remind me of something a very good poker player taught me (paraphrased) - "The best players aren't great because they make lot of tough choices correctly when playing their hands, but rather because they play their hands in ways that allow them to avoid making tough choices down the line". That may not make a lot of sense if you are unfamiliar with poker, but it really applies to life in general. The whole point of this debate for me is really to analytically flesh out the issues involved in these tough scenarios, so we may be fortunate enough to figure out exactly what "side we are on" and why BEFORE those tough choices actually present themselves. Then, the choices won't be so tough anymore. Apologize for nothing, Ashvin. The discussion between you and RE (accompanied as it is by the smell of cordite-- or is that brimstone?) carries as much light as heat, particularly towards exploring the dark corners of these issues. And for those of us inclined to follow it, here and at the Diner, it pays provocative and useful dividends. Considerations like OMMP don't cross the minds of most people; yet OMMP is a thought experiment that causes us to question our (generally unexamined) personal ethics. What concerns me is that in a time where people have little faith in authority and existing institutions (churches being characterized by fundamentalist megachurch overreach or by pederasts in clerical collars, universities by the Jerry Sanduskys of the world, and government a gaggle of bought-and-paid-for fellators of the corporate state), we are ethically/morally unprepared and have no where to turn for guidance. Save for the ethics of the corporate state, which IMHO, are indistinguishable from those of Satan: make more, spend less, devil take the hindmost. Very much unlike what we find in Matthew. Difficult to imagine a OMMP that doesn't unfold like Kosovo or Rwanda, where one's choice is framed by The Other: "Join us, or Oppose Us." I sincerely believe that it is a very thin veneer of civilization that holds society in place, and absent the grid and/or the rule of law, it's "Lord of the Flies" time. Your point about poker is well made. My poker playing skills are such that, when I sit down to a game, I may as well hand my wallet to my fellow players. To follow your analogy, playing your cards well early to avoid tough choices involves knowing the odds. Not sure the odds are knowable at this time. Collapse is coming; do we play for an intermediate term, or go all in now? |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3847
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Surly1 wrote:
Your point about poker is well made. My poker playing skills are such that, when I sit down to a game, I may as well hand my wallet to my fellow players. To follow your analogy, playing your cards well early to avoid tough choices involves knowing the odds. Not sure the odds are knowable at this time. Collapse is coming; do we play for an intermediate term, or go all in now? Well that's kind of the point of everything we discuss on these forums, right? To figure out the "odds" of how this particular collapse will play out. That's exactly what you do in a poker game, except it's obviously much easier in comparison. Here's an example: A player raises 4x the big blind in early position, and you have AT (ace-ten) on the button. So now you are faced with a decision - fold, call, or raise. To make the best decision here, you must figure out the "odds" involved. That's not as easy as it sounds, though. It involves a lot of factors, such as what kind of hands the other player is capable of raising with (and that depends on his playing style, his betting patterns, recent action at the table, etc.), who else is in the pot, what kind of equity your AT has against the range of hands the raiser has, what the effective stack sizes are, and a couple other more minor variables. And of all that is just to make a decision before the next betting round - you have to do the same thing on every betting round. BUT, making good decisions on the first betting round could make your decisions on the later ones much easier (although that fact alone is not what makes the first decision good) So going back to the issue at hand, let's say that the strains of thought in every comment within this debate represent a betting round. That means we have thousands and thousands more betting rounds to play before the game totally collapses. One of our goals, then, is to choose the strains of thoughts we engage wisely right now so that we may have easier decisions later. Some strains of thought need to be folded right now out of the gate, while others can be entertained to varying degrees. Using this analogy, I would say the spiritual strain of thought is really the one that makes our decisions the easiest later. It's almost analogous to folding every hand on the first betting round, i.e. there are essentially NO tough decisions to be made later. We already know how we will deal with every choice we are presented with in the future, at least in theory. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the right move to make, though, based on the all of the complex factors involved. Sometimes leaving yourself with only easy decisions isn't the best way to play your hands... it all depends. |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3849
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ashvin wrote:
You really need to stop quoting everything from the Bible completely out of context as if that has any meaning. I see. If I pull a quote from the Bible, it is out of context. If you pull a quote from the Bible it is in context. Damn, RE, sounds like you really want to start some kind of Fourth Reich here and exterminate ALL of us. No, just Pigmen. You may think you understand WHY people have various faiths and what exactly those faiths entail, but I don't think you really do, based on your numerous misrepresentations of the most popularized (and bastardized) one in Western culture - the Christian faith. JYHO. Right, Jesus recognized all of these things before you and I ever did - that many people would begin practicing the faith as hypocrites and throw out trite nuggets of His wisdom from time to time. But He told His true believers not to do that, and to always remember when they pray in solace - "Our Father which art in heaven... Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in Earth, as it is in Heaven" and "...if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses". The Lord's Prayer! In context by the world renowned expert on Christian belief structure, Dr. Watson! Gimmee a break. Your very premise that humanity faces inevitable extinction without the OMMP is ridiculous in their minds, and, no, they are not ignoring the evidence that you are considering. Like I said before, they realize all the evil being perpetrated today, and the various economic, social, environmental and militaristic calamities we face across the world. That actually gives them even MORE confidence in their faith. If you don't accept the premise, you have a lot more room for maneuvering. RE |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3850
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Surly1 wrote:
Your point about poker is well made. My poker playing skills are such that, when I sit down to a game, I may as well hand my wallet to my fellow players. To follow your analogy, playing your cards well early to avoid tough choices involves knowing the odds. Not sure the odds are knowable at this time. Collapse is coming; do we play for an intermediate term, or go all in now? I will run the Chess analogy on this one later tonight. No time now to flesh that one out. Suffice it to say here that Poker always has the element of Chance involved, whereas Chess never does. RE |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3853
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[quote="Reverse Engineer" post=3849]ashvin wrote:
I see. If I pull a quote from the Bible, it is out of context. If you pull a quote from the Bible it is in context. Well, seeing as how I provided you with the book, chapter and all the surrounding verses of the relevant statements... yeah, a lot more context was provided than "go forth and multiply". Believe it or not, context is absolutely critical for determining the meaning conveyed by anything communicated in any form. "Be fruitful and multiply" or some version of that appears several places in the Bible. The first instance is in Genesis 1 after Adam and Eve were created: 26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” 29Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so. 31God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. Hmmm, so let's see... God creates two human beings on Earth and then tells them to multiply so they can populate it and govern over it in His name. Sounds pretty logical to me. Either way, it has absolutely nothing to do with our current issues of over-population thousands of years later. God didn't tell them to keep multiplying forever until there were no resources left to sustain the human population. You can easily go through every instance that phrase is used in the Bible with online software and figure out what the context is, and therefore the actual meaning/message conveyed in that context... Of course, sometimes to determine the meaning you will have to compare one part of the Bible [or any written document] with another part that is similar or being referenced, or understand the historical time period in which something is being said or taking place, or the beliefs structures that were in place, or the literary device that is being employed, or how certain spelling/grammar is used in the relevant language, or... I think you get the idea. If you don't accept the premise, you have a lot more room for maneuvering. RE Uh, yeah. If we DO accept the premise that No OMMP as laid out by RE = automatic extinction, then... it's kind of difficult to argue against it. Not impossible, as I have shown with the afterlife/reincarnation arguments, but difficult. Fortunately for us, though, the premise that no OMMP equals auto extinction can be placed somewhere on a scale from ridiculous to absolutely insane. |
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Last Edit: 11 months ago by ashvin.
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3855
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How silly,
nobody knows what is going to happen in the future, in the long run we are all dead. That's the hated Keynes, you know. Getting from where we are to where it is we need to go isn't going to be easy, but if we can put a man on the Moon ... Easier and more effective to start getting rid of the consumer goods in your lives: cars, tvs, gadgets, 'life savers', RVs, vacation homes, and the debts that go with these things. People believe they can solve problems by going to the store and buying something, what is needed in this world is all the things that cannot be found in any store: character, discipline, restraint, humility. As for solving anything by 'direct action'. Not likely to be effective but certainly will cause a lot of unnecessary suffering to third parties. Better to address economic problems with better economics, social problems with better social policies and more justice rather than arbitrary reaction. Direct action is just another bailout ... |
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Re: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3856
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I haven't yet finished reading the comments but when I do I'll post my own--which will, of course, settle everything. (do I need to add a smiley face?)
But I have a question for everyone. Do you believe there is an actual "Illuminati" or some such organization of elites? Personally, I tend not to, although I'm sure that groups of the elite do get together to advance their interests. Followup question: could it be possible that TPTB, for want of a better term, would like to organize a die--off of the great mass of people to obtain a world where the scarce resources will last much longer with just them and a small percentage of professionals they require to use them? Again, I don't believe that, or more accurately, I have no evidence for that but I can't help but wonder sometimes if a bunch of the 1% are planning just that. |
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Play to Win! 11 months ago #3858
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Watson often likes to use metaphors from Poker when analysing the collapse dynamic, since Poker is his Game. Simlarly, I like to use Chess metaphors, since Chess is my game. So I will explore this a bit with this post. In some regards Poker might be considered the better metaphor, if you accept that there is an element of chance involved in all the decisions being made along the way in the game. If you take into account such things as Natural Disasters like the Sendai Quake or Katrina, you can make the case that some aspects of the collapse are governed by chance. However, on the Financial level and structural societal level of building an Industrial Culture, no chance was ever involved in that. A series of Moves were made early on in the game to gain a much stronger position for Black here, Black being a representation for the Illuminati/Elite of society. White representing J6P is very much backed into a corner here now and Black controls most of the board. Conventional tactics can no longer play a Winning Game for White. However, White still does have a few Pieces in play like the OWS Castle, the Boys in Black Pajamas (Anarchists) Knights, and Bishop Bloggers, handling the Keyboard is Mightier than the AR-15 aspect of the Propaganda battle. White also has many more Pawns on the board than Black does, and remember in this Chess game you aren't limited to 64 Squares and only 8 Pawns. Much bigger Numbers we are dealing with here, but still it is not a random game of Chance, rather a game of Strategy and Position. What is White to do here? Given the Numbers differential, Sacrificing a few Pawns likely can recapture a portion of the Board. this can give the Castle of OWS room to maneuver, and give the Boys in Black Pajamas Anarchist Knights cover from which to operate. Together, they can hopefully open a Column to Advance a Pawn to the 8th Rank and Queen that Pawn. Once White has a new Queen on the Board, the advantage that Black has here is substantially reduced. Again though, since we are working with much greater numbers and a Global chessboard, you are really talking about many Pawns being Sacrificed in order for a few Queens to be made in the game. In Chess or in Poker, there is only one Goal, which is to WIN. No concern in either game about Ethics, Morals or an Afterlife. If you clutter up your betting in a Poker game with thoughts about the fact if you Bankrupt one of the other players his kids might go Hungry, its going to affect your betting. You can't do that if you want to Win the Game. Simlarly in Chess, if you feel sorry for the other player because he is a bit dimwitted and makes some stupid moves, if you let him go and don't capitalize on those errors, you also don't win. You see an Error, BAM you hit him with everything you got and capitalize on the error. This debate here is of course cluttered up with many arguments about morality and ethics, and because of that developing a Winning Strategy for the Game here, Poker or Chess is quite impossible. Neither game takes morals and ethics into consideration, so they are not good metaphors to use as long as that is part of the argument. In the final analysis here for me though, because of the nature of the collapse, morals and ethics are becoming ever less a part of the game we play on the World Stage. Clearly, the Illuminati are not sticking to any Code of Law here, so if J6P continues to stick to some abstract set of principles that the Illuminati are NOT sticking to, he is going to lose this battle. In the creation of a new society and a Better tomorrow, having Good Ethics and a solid Moral Structure is important for the health of the society. Perhaps the biggest problem we have now is that pretty much since Ag became the social meme, we have not had either good ethics or good morality. Unfortunately here, to establish better ones, we first have to Win this Game as it stands, and only unconventional tactics can do that now. Play to Win. RE www.doomsteaddiner.org |
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Last Edit: 11 months ago by Reverse Engineer.
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Se7en or Justice for All? 11 months ago #3861
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Over in the Parallel Thread on the Diner, in response to my Holmes & Watson article, Watson dropped on a clip from the film Se7en. In it, Watson identifies my character as Brad Pitt, his as Morgan Freeman, and the Illuminati as Kevin Spacey. I'm going to paste across this aspect of the debate from the Diner. Pain in the ass reformatting all of it, but worthwhile in this case I think. First from Watson, responding to the Holmes & Watson article. RE wrote: I turned this one into a Feature Article on the Blog, Holmes and Watson. Added a fairly lengthy Intro to it as well to explain the dynamic I see going down here between Ashvin and myself. Ash, you are Watson now forever more on the pages of DD. RE That works. But if we want to get QUITE specific with our cinematic references here, given the deep strains of Christian spirituality running through our debate, we'd have to go with the movie Se7en. Remember the box scene?? You are Brad Pitt, and I am Morgan Freeman (Kevin Spacey is the Illuminati, i.e. Satan). Give me the gun, RE, give me the gun... Spoiler alert for those who missed it: Response to this from Holmes: Ashvin wrote: That works. But if we want to get QUITE specific with our cinematic references here, given the deep strains of Christian spirituality running through our debate, we'd have to go with the movie Se7en. Remember the box scene?? You are Brad Pitt, and I am Morgan Freeman (Kevin Spacey is the Illuminati, i.e. Satan). Give me the gun, RE, give me the gun... Good scene selection there Watson. You should drop it in the Favorite Film clips archive also. Thing is here, Brad Pitt seems to have a lot of moral anguish over pumping Kevin Spacey full of lead. Why? I gather from the clip (I did not see the movie) that Spacey Decapitated Pitt's wife and killed the unborn baby at the same time. Seems to me like that warrants a lead injection. Far as Morgan is concerned, what is his motivation here? To keep Brad from going to Jail for killing Kevin? The idea here being we should wait for the "Law", aka Da Goobermint to punish Kevin? What if the "Law" isn't doing that? Are we supposed to wait for God to drop down here and administer Justice? What? RE Watson replies with this: RE wrote: Good scene selection there Watson. You should drop it in the Favorite Film clips archive also. Thing is here, Brad Pitt seems to have a lot of moral anguish over pumping Kevin Spacey full of lead. Why? I gather from the clip (I did not see the movie) that Spacey Decapitated Pitt's wife and killed the unborn baby at the same time. Seems to me like that warrants a lead injection. Far as Morgan is concerned, what is his motivation here? To keep Brad from going to Jail for killing Kevin? The idea here being we should wait for the "Law", aka Da Goobermint to punish Kevin? What if the "Law" isn't doing that? Are we supposed to wait for God to drop down here and administer Justice? What? Basically, Spacey was going around killing people who committed one of the "seven deadly sins" (which are really just a fiction of the Catholic Church in terms of a separate category of sins). In that way, he was kind of like an Orkin Man himself, allegedly doing God's work against these sinners. But it becomes clear that he's actually a lot more like Satan... trying to convince others that he IS God, and trying to undermine God's word by testing the Faith of Brad Pitt. He is a very clever and deceptive character. In my view, Morgan is concerned with the fact that, if Pitt executes Spacey right there, then the Devil has won by definition. Pitt would have abandoned God to satisfy his need for vengeance for his wife and unborn child (which, ironically, is a deadly sin). Now that I think about it, I'm not sure who fits the Orkin Man role better here, Pitt or Spacey. Pitt is only killing one truly evil person who has killed others (or perhaps one person who was inhabited by an evil spirit), but the Devil in Spacey kills a bunch of innocent people who have only committed what he considers to be sins worthy of capital punishment, as well as the wife and child just to accomplish his ultimate goal... I don't know, tough call. Holmes pulls out the Heavy Artillery: And Justice for All Ashvin wrote: In my view, Morgan is concerned with the fact that, if Pitt executes Spacey right there, then the Devil has won by definition. Pitt would have abandoned God to satisfy his need for vengeance for his wife and unborn child (which, ironically, is a deadly sin). Now that I think about it, I'm not sure who fits the Orkin Man role better here, Pitt or Spacey. Pitt is only killing one truly evil person who has killed others (or perhaps one person who was inhabited by an evil spirit), but the Devil in Spacey kills a bunch of innocent people who have only committed what he considers to be sins worthy of capital punishment, as well as the wife and child just to accomplish his ultimate goal... I don't know, tough call. Tough Call? OMFG. Its this kind of insane logic that got us into this mess. Spacey doesn't "Win" when Pitt fills him full of Lead, he LOSES. He's DEAD. Dead=Lose here. Imagine if Brad hands over the Gun to Morgan, and they cuff Kevin and take him off to the Courthouse. If this is today's world, Kevin hires the best lawyers and Walks, just like all the Banksters do. This is Justice? This is a good result for Brad, who had the opportunity before he foolishly hands his weapon over to asshole Morgan to send Spacey straight to fucking HELL where he belongs? THIS is why Banksters and CEOs can go around killing not just a few folks like Kevin did, but MILLIONS of them. They know they can GET AWAY with it because jackasses like Morgan are too namby pamby to hand out a worthwhile Punishment that fits the Crime. The worst thing the Bankster faces is maybe a few years in a cushy Federal Pen for White Collar Scumbags. You gotta get your head screwed on straight here Ashvin. Kevin is a SCUMBAG who DESERVES TO DIE. Brad did not Lose when he filled Kevin full of Lead, he WON. It would have been a better Win if he found Kevin BEFORE his wife got decapitated, but this was the next best thing afterward. Letting that scumbag LIVE is LOSING. If I was St. Peter at the Pearly Gates and Brad had let Kevin live, I would slam the doors shut on him. He does not deserve Everlasting Glory in the Kingdom of Heaven. He had the CHANCE to Exterminate some Evil and passed it up. This is not Everlasting Glory meritable. Reminds me of the closing scene in "And Justice For All". Classic Pacino. So where do YOU stand on this one? Should Brad(RE/Holmes) have handed his Gun over to Morgan (Asvin/Watson) and let Kevin (Illuminati/Bankster) live? Inquiring minds want to know. RE |
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Last Edit: 11 months ago by Reverse Engineer.
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Re: Se7en or Justice for All? 11 months ago #3865
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Reverse Engineer wrote:
Tough Call? OMFG. Its this kind of insane logic that got us into this mess. Spacey doesn't "Win" when Pitt fills him full of Lead, he LOSES. He's DEAD. Dead=Lose here. Sorry, RE, but you totally missed the point of the reference here (perhaps because you have not even seen the movie). I specifically chose Se7en because of the obvious themes of Christian faith running through it. Kevin Spacy represents the Devil, and is possessed by one of his demonic spirits. When Pitt ends the life of Spacey, the spirit WINS... and then it simply moves on to seek another physical body in which it can undermine God. That is how it works in Judeo-Christian theology. I would not have chosen that reference if I knew we were just going to skip that plainly obvious aspect of it altogether and focus on the American legal system... If I was St. Peter at the Pearly Gates and Brad had let Kevin live, I would slam the doors shut on him. He does not deserve Everlasting Glory in the Kingdom of Heaven. He had the CHANCE to Exterminate some Evil and passed it up. This is not Everlasting Glory meritable. In actuality, sticking to the spirit of the reference here, God would look at Pitt and say something like... "you were tempted by the Devil to commit sin, just like Eve in the Garden, and you failed the test, just like she did. You spent an entire lifetime searching for Me and let all the fruits of your hard work slip away in that one moment of rage. Therefore, you never knew me and you must depart" If YOU were the Ultimate Decider in Heaven, then the Judeo-Christian faith and God's plan for humanity would be rendered meaningless.... But, hey, at least people would get to play out their revenge fantasies on Earth without any spiritual consequences. |
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Re: Play to Win! 11 months ago #3866
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RE there's a problem when you argue by metaphor or analogy in that, in this case, neither poker nor chess are an exact fit for our situation. And it is around the edges that the analogy falls down. The problem with arguing that morality must be put aside in order to win and then be picked up once the battle's over is that, once discarded, morality and ethics are rarely if ever picked up again.
Having said that I do believe lopping off the head of the monster's quite justified. The problem is identifying the monster. |
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Re: Play to Win! 11 months ago #3872
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Patrick wrote:
RE there's a problem when you argue by metaphor or analogy in that, in this case, neither poker nor chess are an exact fit for our situation. And it is around the edges that the analogy falls down. The problem with arguing that morality must be put aside in order to win and then be picked up once the battle's over is that, once discarded, morality and ethics are rarely if ever picked up again. I pointed out this problem in my commentary: RE wrote: This debate here is of course cluttered up with many arguments about morality and ethics, and because of that developing a Winning Strategy for the Game here, Poker or Chess is quite impossible. Neither game takes morals and ethics into consideration, so they are not good metaphors to use as long as that is part of the argument. Far as the difficulty of Rebooting a Moral Structure once the old one goes Blue Screen of Death, agreed that is not an easy task and doesn't happen overnight either. The issue here with current morality is it has ALREADY been put aside by Black. They are not playing by the Rules. Their Knights aren't limited to 2 squares up 1 square over, anytime they like they can go 2 squares up and 2 over or 3:1 or in fact whatever the fuck they want to do. Given this FACT, you gotta pitch out your rules also. Having said that I do believe lopping off the head of the monster's quite justified. The problem is identifying the monster. See the "And Justice for All" clip. I don't think it is all that hard to identify the monster here. "The Son of a Bitch is GUILTY and should go STRAIGHT to Fucking Jail! He RAPED her and he'd like to do it again! He TOLD me so!" The TEPCO and BP Executives tell you this every day. And they'll keep right on Raping Mother Earth until SOMEBODY gets REALLY FUCKING PISSED OFF here. RE |
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The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On? 11 months ago #3876
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Wow!
Seriously, I'm blown away by this article as it hits the nail on the head HARD. Simply a great, great read that I'm grateful for. It's a damn tough call what to do when pushed in a corner. "Peace, love, dope" sounds Hunky Dory until you start starving. Or even before that with the thrilling, delicious thoughts of stringing up banksters, lawyers & politicians. Yummmmmm....oh boy. Again, I really enjoyed it and most sincere thanks to all involved. |
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- • 22 - Super Rich Stash At Least $21 Trillion In Secret Tax Havens
- • 18 - Jeff Rubin and Oil Prices Revisited
- • 16 - Report: The Golden Dilemma
- • 12 - Europe Is Sliding Back Into Its Own Past
- • 10 - Libor was a criminal conspiracy from the start
- • 08 - Hubris Before The Storm
- • 03 - Unconventional Oil is NOT a Game Changer
- ► June (11)
- • 29 - Angela Merkel is Playing You For Fools
- • 23 - This Is Not America
- • 21 - Spanish Cook Books
- • 18 - Capital Flight, Capital Controls, Capital Fear
- • 18 - The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On?
- • 15 - Goodness! Gracious! Great Wall's on Fire!
- • 13 - Autoimmune Finance: The System Attacks Itself
- • 09 - Europe: A Thousand Miles Behind
- • 06 - Welcome to the No-Growth Paradigm
- • 03 - If you love your kids, stop the bond bonanza
- • 01 - The truth about Europe - There is no solution Part 2: Growth doesn't rhyme with crunch
- ► May (9)
- • 29 - Espana en Fuego
- • 27 - Mammon is Hungry: Husband's Suicide One Day, Wells Fargo to Evict Wife The Next
- • 23 - All Hail the Greek Exit
- • 20 - Homo sapiens v. FWS
- • 18 - Deterrence is Dead
- • 17 - A world terrified by impotent ghosts from the past
- • 13 - Discovering the "End" in "Extend & Pretend"
- • 11 - There Is Not Enough Money On Planet Earth
- • 05 - China, or How To Live in Interesting Times
- ► April (8)
- • 29 - Beyond Zero Emissions: What's Wrong with Big Green Tech
- • 27 - The Limits to Mankind
- • 25 - Revisiting the Physical Risks of Debt
- • 22 - General Thoughts about Luck
- • 18 - Spain, Land of Magical Financial Realism
- • 09 - Money in Politics
- • 06 - Learning to Think in Multiple Scales
- • 02 - Disaster Capital Hits Europe
- ► March (14)
- • 29 - The Nature of Tipping Points
- • 28 - The Death of the Entertainment Industry
- • 27 - The Shock Doctrine has come to New Zealand
- • 24 - Becoming the Bank
- • 22 - To Where Our Oppositional Culture Takes Us
- • 20 - You wouldn't know it to look at it
- • 16 - An Introduction to Agent-Based Modeling
- • 13 - Juking the Stats: Our Culture of Manipulation
- • 11 - Get Ready to be Disappointed With "Sterilized" QE3
- • 09 - Revisiting the Financial Fingerprint of Instability
- • 06 - Why Liquidity is No Longer Enough
- • 05 - Their Assumptions are Getting Very Ugly
- • 03 - The Original Street Artist
- • 01 - Modern Myths that Destroy Humanity
- ► February (9)
- • 28 - When the Deflation Tsunami Hits, Losing the Least is a Winner
- • 26 - Our Depraved Future of Debt Slavery (Part III)
- • 24 - Our Depraved Future of Debt Slavery (Part II)
- • 22 - Our Depraved Future of Debt Slavery (Part I)
- • 20 - The Torture of the European Periphery
- • 18 - We're Still Sinking With the Titanic
- • 15 - Political Theater Will Kill the Status Quo
- • 13 - Die Wahrheit Macht Frei
- • 04 - Who Killed the Money Printer?
- ► January (6)
- ► 2011 (4)
Stoneleigh Occupies:
Nicole Foss Lecture Tour:
AUSTRALIA/NEW ZEALAND March-June 2013
New Zealand May/June Dates still available
May 24 Waiheke Island
Palm Beach Hall 6.30pm
May 27 Auckland
The Hillsborough Room, The Fickling Centre (Mount Eden) 7.30pm
May 29 Tauranga
Baycourt 7.15pm
May 30 Wellington
Sustainability Trust, 2 Forresters Lane 5.30pm
June 1 Otaki
Clean Technology Centre 47 Miro St. 1.30pm
US Fall 2013 - Dates Available
Request Lectures: StoneleighTravels •at• gmail •dot• com.
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