Desperate European Bankster Puppets Exposed
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Ashvin wrote:
Your question actually has two different meanings, but I will go ahead and answer both of them.
1) According to Christianity and the Bible, Jesus was LITERALLY the Son of God, which is really the equivalent of God Himself. I absolutely do not believe that the New Testament Gospels were documenting the life of a normal human being that existed in history. They were not using metaphors or anything like that when they described the miracles he performed.
2) As to my personal beliefs, I DON’T KNOW and I don’t pretend to know for certain whether God exists and whether Jesus was the Son of God. I have not reached any firm conclusions on those things one way or the other. It most certainly is not outside the realm of possibility for me.
Since you do not know for sure whether God exists or if Jesus was the Son of God, you can’t be sure the Bible is the Literal Truth. Neither am I sure whether it is literal truth or not, but I suspect many things in it are not.
You seem to believe some spiritual teachings are literal truth, and then you also cite ‘experts” who claim the whole thing is literal truth. It’s a fairly confused position you are taking overall Ashvin.
My take on the Bible is that it reveals many things about the Human condition and is probably the best still remaining source of History from about 4000 BC to around the time the New Testament got written, thereafter there are a lot of other texts to work from also. My Illuminati Spawn college girlfriend was an expert in this stuff, she was fluent in Ancient Greek and Latin so it was subject of many lively discussions between us in those years.
Aynhow, I am no Biblical Scholar by any means, I look for meaning in the Bible and what ring true I use, what does not I look at mainly as parable or misperceptions by the writers or translators.
Far as the Bolshevik Revolution and its aftermath is concerned, I never made the case that it ended up all that well, just that it was an improvement for the Ruskies over lives under the Romanoffs which consisted of Serfdom (your hated Slavery of the explicit kind) and fairly regular Pogroms. As to a comparative numerical accounting goes of whether more Innocents were sent to the Great Beyond by Uncle Joe Stalin or the Romanoff family going back to Peter the Great, I can’t answer that for sure, but I would bet on a percentage of population basis at any given time the Romanoffs were responsible for more deaths than Stalin was.
On the Backfire analogy, clearly we disagree, this is NOT a “new fire”, it is set SPECIFICALLY to combat an already ongoing conflagration. Not even setting the fire in a new forest either, setting it in all the places where the fire currently rages out of control. My analogy works better than yours does Ashvin, hands down here.
Far as your selective choices go of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot et al go as representative of the Evil Dictator outcome, it remains a possibility but does not HAVE to be the outcome. All I need to do is demonstrate ONE instance of a Dictator who improved the lives of the people he ruled over to show this outcome is not inevitable. I think Fidel Castro does that pretty well by his lonesome. There is little doubt that quite a few Innocents were sent to the Great Beyond when Castro took over, but on balance things mostly were better for the Cubans. At least they didn’t get raped like the Haitians did.
Considering “drawing on Spiritual energies” to combat the Forces of Evil, here you are starting to sound like Ben expecting to get an answer from the 5th Dimension. What you are saying in essence is that we should all just PRAY together here, and Kumbaya all will be well. I don’t buy this as a solution, as you say people are Praying RIGHT NOW for this insanity to end, but it AIN’T ENDING. I suggest a more terrestrial based approach and will leave the Spirit world to you and the 5th Dimension to Ben.
Finally, I am glad you are beginning to see my approach as “well thought out” rather than “making shit up as I go along”. I’ve been working on this theory/plan for well over 4 years now and trying to noodle out alternatives also to what obviously is a pretty extreme idea. It is ALSO true though that I make shit up all the time as I go along here, but that is just part of being adaptible to changing circumstances and different arguments thrown at me. You are an astoundingly good opponent in such a Chess game, and I really do appreciate the time you have taken to engage me thusfar.
So as of now, neither of us have resigned our positions, and we are somewhere in the Middle Game now. Your move. The Clock is running.
RE
Reverse Engineer post=3350 wrote:
Since you do not know for sure whether God exists or if Jesus was the Son of God, you can’t be sure the Bible is the Literal Truth. Neither am I sure whether it is literal truth or not, but I suspect many things in it are not.
You seem to believe some spiritual teachings are literal truth, and then you also cite ‘experts” who claim the whole thing is literal truth. It’s a fairly confused position you are taking overall Ashvin.
OK, here is a simple example:
Karl Marx developed a theory of how political economies evolve over time, how feudalism led to capitalism, and how capitalism would break down over time. Now we can disagree with his interpretation of historical events, but we cannot dispute the fact that HE BELIEVED that’s how it went down. Looking at all of his writings as a whole, it is indisputable that he was talking about feudalism and capitalism and communism literally, and not as some metaphor for something else.
Similarly, I do not think you can pick and choose what you think is literal and what you think is parable from the authors of the Biblical texts, just because some things jive with what you believe and some things don’t. With regards to Jesus and his words/action, either the Gospels of his apostles were right or wrong – but they said what they meant and meant what they said. I do not believe we can do this:
I look for meaning in the Bible and what ring true I use, what does not I look at mainly as parable or misperceptions by the writers or translators.
Gotta run to the gym now… so I’ll complete my move later.
ashvin post=3351 wrote:
Similarly, I do not think you can pick and choose what you think is literal and what you think is parable from the authors of the Biblical texts, just because some things jive with what you believe and some things don’t. With regards to Jesus and his words/action, either the Gospels of his apostles were right or wrong – but they said what they meant and meant what they said. I do not believe we can do this.Of course we can pick and choose what to use and what not to use in an argument. You do it every time you write an article here and snippet out quotes from other authors. To support your arguments, you select out quotes from other Bloggers who have a smilar POV or take on the situation you do. To undermine the opposition, you select out quotes which are so egregiously STUPID they make the opposition look ridiculous.
Why should the Bible be any different? Because it is ostensibly the Word of God? There are MANY authors who contributed to the Bible, consider them the Bloggers of their time. Some of them may have truly been Prophets inspired by Divine Direction guiding their Keyboard Fingers, others may simply have been tools of a particular faction seeking to get it’s agenda into the Christian Party Platform. Did they REALLY BELIEVE what they were writing? HTF do I know? They may have just been Propagandists for a particular spin.
The best I can do is to read the Bible with a critical eye and try to glean what Truth there is in it, and I do think there is a lot of Truth written therein. All Truth though? I doubt it sincerely. I don’t think Methuselah lived for 900 years. I don’t think Jesus of Nazareth was born to a Virgin. The accounting of the collapse of Babylon though as accounted in the Book of Revelation? Almost certainly true, because we are seeing it happen all over again now.
Revelation18 wrote:
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
I will respond to the rest of your move when it makes its way to the LCD screen of my Laptop.
RE
Considering “drawing on Spiritual energies” to combat the Forces of Evil, here you are starting to sound like Ben expecting to get an answer from the 5th Dimension. What you are saying in essence is that we should all just PRAY together here, and Kumbaya all will be well. I don’t buy this as a solution, as you say people are Praying RIGHT NOW for this insanity to end, but it AIN’T ENDING. I suggest a more terrestrial based approach and will leave the Spirit world to you and the 5th Dimension to Ben.
I also found that to be a deeply inconsistent suggestion by ash. naturally he will claim otherwise, but implicit in the claim will probably be a judgement that’s not his to make. you have compelled me to raise a couple points of contention, RE. firstly, I don’t expect an answer from 5D (multiversal consciousness) because what framing I have of such a conception with regard to collapse doesn’t include an implicit expectation nor an explicit question. secondly, it is my understanding that a time- and terrestrial- based approach (4D) cannot be separated from 5D if consciousness is believed to be immaterial – and I take it you do.
ben post=3353 wrote:
Considering “drawing on Spiritual energies” to combat the Forces of Evil, here you are starting to sound like Ben expecting to get an answer from the 5th Dimension. What you are saying in essence is that we should all just PRAY together here, and Kumbaya all will be well. I don’t buy this as a solution, as you say people are Praying RIGHT NOW for this insanity to end, but it AIN’T ENDING. I suggest a more terrestrial based approach and will leave the Spirit world to you and the 5th Dimension to Ben.
I also found that to be a deeply inconsistent suggestion by ash. naturally he will claim otherwise, but implicit in the claim will probably be a judgement that’s not his to make. you have compelled me to raise a couple points of contention, RE. firstly, I don’t expect an answer from 5D (multiversal consciousness) because what framing I have of such a conception with regard to collapse doesn’t include an implicit expectation nor an explicit question. secondly, it is my understanding that a time- and terrestrial- based approach (4D) cannot be separated from 5D if consciousness is believed to be immaterial – and I take it you do.
Personally, I thought drawing the analogy between the Spiritual Battle Ashvin outlined and your 5th Dimension arguments was a FABULOUS rhetorical flourish on my part. By lining up his thought process with that of his most avout enemies and showing how they are simliar, it does a great job of undermining the argument. :silly:
Far as separation of approaches goes, I do not have a real good handle on what goes on in the 5th Dmension so I do not know what can or cannot be separated out here. I make all my arguments from inside the 4 dimensions I have a reasonably good handle on, though of course many people view me as Looney tunes even inside just those 4 dimensions anyhow. I do TRY to follow your supra-dimensional arguments to see how they apply in the 4D world I am familiar with, sometimes I see what you are talking about but honestly most times I do not.
Nor do I see of course how PRAYING this all will stop and raising Spiritual Consciousness will clean up Fuk-U-shima or prevent further FUs from occurring. Bogus “solution”. Isn;t working now, hasn’t worked in the past, is ulikely to work in the future.
RE
The debate is an interesting game of dialectical chess…or British bulldog…not sure which. Of course, the irony is that TAE has predicted all along the rise of angry mobs intent on cutting off the heads of their oppressors. It’s part of the unwind that TAE has been warning about, and so far with tremendous accuracy (if without tremendous accuracy of timing). And so, here Ash is trying to convince RE of the error of RE’s desires/agenda while at the same time I’m sure Ash will also admit that we are going to inevitably see these very same agendas carried out the world over.
Like Ash, I will continue to argue against these war-like agendas, despite their inevitability. They will undoubtedly be part of the unwind, but as much as they are an inevitable part of that unwind we must also foster a return to a philosophical, spiritual basis for a better new beginning. Not all “progress” has been a waste. The wider spread notions of equality are part of that progress and worth preserving. I don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I’m not interested in a loss of justice (in its loftiest sense) for the sake of throwing out the ogres who used the “system of justice” for oppression.
The world can be better after a reset, with stronger communities, a healthier environment, and also preserving the right of the individual to live freely without violence and discrimination. I won’t sacrifice one for the other, even while so many people inevitably will and I know that. I’ll still speak out against it though. I just don’t really see the difference between using financial profit as a reason to destroy my individual freedoms and using the “campaign against the profiteers” to destroy my individual freedoms. I wind up in the same hellish place.
skipbreakfast post=3356 wrote: The debate is an interesting game of dialectical chess…or British bulldog…not sure which. Of course, the irony is that TAE has predicted all along the rise of angry mobs intent on cutting off the heads of their oppressors. It’s part of the unwind that TAE has been warning about, and so far with tremendous accuracy (if without tremendous accuracy of timing). And so, here Ash is trying to convince RE of the error of RE’s desires/agenda while at the same time I’m sure Ash will also admit that we are going to inevitably see these very same agendas carried out the world over.
Therein lies the hypocrisy of course. You KNOW what is coming down the pipe here, it’s a cycle which has repeated itself over any times. If you know first off that it is going to occur, and second off how it will likely manifest itself, best bet is to be proactive and take control of the situation. If the Mob is going to form up, then at least try to point the Mob in the right direction so mainly the right people get Strung Up. Will said STAMPEDING MOB trample over Innocents as well? No doubt, but pointed in the right direction the Mob will MOSTLY STOMP, KICK and GORE the PIGMEN!
Regardless, what I see all over the net is a Blame Reversal game being played here, it’s J6Ps fault for LETTING this happen, for ELECTING the criminals and for BUYING the Iphones and for going into DEBT for the McMansions. You only have YOURSELVES to blame, those PIGMEN are no more GUILTY than you are! Leave them alone and Pay your Taxes! Play by the Rules! Turn the Other Cheek.
NO. No more Mr. Nice Guy.
Bring on the Orkin Man.
RE
Nah, not hypocrisy. Knowing a mob is inevitably coming is not the same as endorsing it. And I still see it as my moral duty to oppose violent mob rule, even when i know it’s going to be an inevitable part of the unwind. Remember, the unwind is going to hurt a lot of people for a lot of reasons, violent mobs being just one of them. I want to help people mitigate that pain as much as possible, so they survive to build a better community at the bottom of this mess.
That’s not to say I oppose owning a gun, or even shooting it to protect your rights and property. Hopefully I don’t have to ever pull a trigger, but I expect I’ll try to learn more about shooting all the same.
The problem with opposing mob rule once the mob gets rolling is the “if you’re not with us, you’re against us” phenomenon. You don’t run the other way into a stampede. You run WITH the stampede. You either are with the Wildebeests or the Woves, there are no other choices.
RE
RE, that’s just a bit of emotional propaganda (or worse, a threat). Bush used it too. If I’m not with the mob, I’m not with the mob, period. It doesn’t mean I necessarily get trampled. There is just as much reason to believe I’ll live to fight another day if I avoid the mob rule you’re describing. Besides, isn’t the status quo the current mob? Take your logic further, and we should just go along with that wave for all we can get or we’ll get crushed. You’re endorsing opposing it. I’m all for opposing the mob of the status quo, but not in all the ways you endorse. We do have “numbers” on our side–the more people who get burned by the status quo, the more of “us” will be dissatisfied with the current state of things. Our sheer numbers can effect a lot of change without building a single goddamn guillotine. Endorsing roving militias in search of the ephemeral villains behind this financial mess is not the only way, and is not the best way either. Indeed, chasing ghosts is just going to shed a lot of unnecessary blood. We should focus our energies for more productive gains.
skipbreakfast post=3361 wrote: Our sheer numbers can effect a lot of change without building a single goddamn guillotine.
“Change you can BELIEVE in”, eh Obama-sama?
Sorry Pollyanna, the time is long past where any effective change will come here via peaceful means. Right now, the Gestapo has the Monopoly on the Violence and will use it to crush all opposition. When people start dieing on the streets like the 4 Dean in Ohio on the campus of Kent State University, maybe you will grasp hold of reality here. This go round it won’t just be 4 dead either, and there won’t be any Great Society program to buy off the impoverished either.
I GUARANTEE you that the Wolves will strike hard and they will strike fast. Your friends who Peacefully protest will go desaparecido. Your Bank Account will go empty. Your property if its worth anything at all will be confiscated. The Boxcars will start moving along the rail of the Burlington-Northern Railroad of Warren Buffet heading for the Human Waste Reprocessing Facility in San Antonio. You don’t think it can happen here? Open your eyes SB, it’s happening as we speak, the Patriot Act , NDAA, the stink of Fascism is all around us.
If you don’t start closing ranks now you will be eaten alive, whether you are fast with a Gun or not. If you play by the Rules with these folks, they will carve you up like Thanksgiving Turkey. They play DIRTY, and I for one will not wait to get kicked in the cojones first here. The first shot has already been fired, first punch thrown already in this fight, and numerous of the Wildebeests already have been sent to the Great Beyond. Time to get serious here and grasp hold of what is happening AS WE SPEAK. It’s not going to stop until those at the top are in fear of their very LIVES here. Right now your willingness to play by the rules is what keeps them in power. Clearly for you it will take more before you realize this, but eventually this will arrive on your doorstep also and you’ll get the picture, I am sure.
Endorsing roving militias in search of the ephemeral villains behind this financial mess is not the only way, and is not the best way either. Indeed, chasing ghosts is just going to shed a lot of [strike]unnecessary[/strike] necessary blood. We should focus our energies for more productive gains.
Fixed that for you 😉
The Villains are NOT “ephemeral”. I can name any number of them right now. Lloyd, Blankfein, Jamie Dimon, Bob Diamond, Ben Bernanke, Carl icahn, Ollie Rehn, Herman von Rompuy, David Rockefeller…..shall I go on here? Those are only the obvious ones also, ferreting out the shadow figures will take a good deal of time as well. Until all these cockroaches are exterminated, we can’t productively solve any problems, because THEY are the problem here. If it was good enough just to lock them up and throw away the key I would be fine with that, except that won’t work and costs too much anyhow. I certainly do not want to pay for keeping these Scumbags alive in some prison, no matter how stinking rotten a dungeon it is. They just gotta GO, and since they have no issues with sending entire populations to the Great Beyond, I do not see where it is morally reprehensible to reward them Justly for this behavior.
An Eye for an Eye, a Tooth for a Tooth.
RE
Who said I endorse playing by the rules? I certainly don’t. Break them and stand your ground. That is different than the genesis of this debate: are there evil mastermind villains at the very top who should be captured and beheaded? Returning to this core of the debate, I see no reason yet to budge from my argument that they don’t really exist. Not in the way that they can be hunted down in any effective, sane, useful, helpful or moral way. The evil is systemic, not individual.
I think with regard to your point about not “blaming Joe-6-Pack” for the mess “he” is in, it’s really important to return to a brilliant insight from Stoneleigh in which she recalled the fable of Hansel and Gretel. The analogy she made argues that we would never blame Hansel and Gretel for their predicament (they’re nearly eaten) despite the fact that it was an innocent sort of greed that got them there (they were happy to accept the witch’s offer to eat as much of the candy-house as they wanted). Because faced with such an offer, any child would accept! Now, Joe-6-Pack, and his better half Josephine (or John?) were similarly led by the bankers (the witches) to the easy (and incredibly complex) all-you-can-eat credit buffet (the gingerbread house). Not surprisingly we all gorged on it until we’re choking, and were none the wiser…until now. Bankers are paid hundreds of thousands if not millions to figure out ways to get Joe, Josephine and John to fall into the trap. It’s not a fair fight. No wonder we fell for it! The guy making $30K a year fixing mufflers was trained to believe his banker. Oops. So it is important NOT to blame Joe. Truly, it is not his fault, and he should not pay the price. The well-informed bankers lent the money out, knowing full well what the risks were (unlike Joe). Indeed, the bankers wrote the rules! Their take-it-or-leave-it mortgage agreements, if you will. And so let’s enforce those same rules against the banks. Not against Joe. And re-write the rules that were wrong to begin with. I totally agree that the banks and bondholders should pay the price for their terrible bets–after all, they really did know better. The banks are a systemic evil that needs addressing. Systemic evil isn’t solved by violence against a few individuals, however. There are many other rule-breaking tactics that can and undoubtedly will be employed to make necessary changes.
Hello SB, go way back up the thread here to what you yourself wrote:
Skipbreakfast wrote: What about our own individual responsiblity in this whole mess? We’re voters. We’re consumers. We have free will. I don’t want to blame the victim. But I also want to avoid wasting time on blaming Puff the Magic Dragon.
Despite your really GOOD Hansel and Gretel analogy, the words you wrote above are a common idea circulating that it is each little J6P who is individually responsible here, not the Big Boys at the top. You “don’t want to blame the victim”, but you DO blame the victim!
You also write
That is different than the genesis of this debate: are there evil mastermind villains at the very top who should be captured and beheaded?
First off, I don’t think that is the genesis of the debate at all. IMHO, it would be better phrased as “What is the best way to handle our current problems which will Save the most Innocents and Punish the Most Guilty”.
Far as how many Mastermind Villains there are at the Top, of this we cannot be sure right now. We can be sure there are some though, because we are working in a Central control Top down paradigmfor a very long time here. There IS a Brain to this Beast, even if it is distributed across many Heads (which off course all need to roll like Bowling Balls 🙂 )
In terms of systemic Evil here, yes there is an emergent property of the system no one individual participant is responsible for, but overall the system cannot continue once you remove its Head (or Heads as the case may be here). If you identify the controlling source of any system, say the motherboard of your laptop and fry it, POOF the whole system of your computer won’t run any more! Same deal here. By targetting the Motherboard here of system controllers at the Top, we get rid of the system in the most efficient means possible.
Again, this is really about Accountability, and who is most Responsible and Culpable? Clearly it is those folks with great Wealth and Power who have been running the show and pulling the strings of Political Power, across Generations for sure and likely across Millenia. Take them out, system goes Blue Screen of Death on the Laptop.
RE
Note I specifically said in the quote you bring up, I don’t want to blame the vicitm. And I don’t. I won’t. But I will blame somethign systemic, which requires change from each of us. Demanding change from each of us is different from assigning blame.
Ultimately, our debate comes full circle. I intervened upon K’s question to you: “name the evil masterminds behind this mess.” My answer was there were none–not in the sense K was suggesting. You insist there are such evil masterminds. But when asked how we begin making them pay, I pointed out that you can’t just eliminate one, 100, or 1000, because more just pop up in their place. The hydra as you aptly put it. And I point out that we then devolve into an endless blame game against a fantasy hydra where nobody wins–you cannot eliminate the evil masterminds through targeted violence because there are no evil masterminds per se (or conversely they are infinite and just as elusive as a result). So they’re a fantasy. If it’s systemic, the whole “system” is responsible and must be changed. That is different from blaming Joe, John, Josephine, you or me. We must CHANGE as individuals to address the sytemic evil. We don’t PUNISH Joe to address it. That would be wrong. The distinction is encouraging change from individual victims’ behaviour versus punishing the victims for something they supposedly did wrong in the past. Like Hansel and Gretel I don’t think most individuals deserve blame for their predicament. Moving forward, I do argue we should all change though.
skipbreakfast post=3366 wrote:
Ultimately, our debate comes full circle. I intervened upon K’s question to you: “name the evil masterminds behind this mess.” My answer was there were none–not in the sense K was suggesting. You insist there are such evil masterminds. But when asked how we begin making them pay, I pointed out that you can’t just eliminate one, 100, or 1000, because more just pop up in their place. The hydra as you aptly put it. And I point out that we then devolve into an endless blame game against a fantasy hydra where nobody wins–you cannot eliminate the evil masterminds through targeted violence because there are no evil masterminds per se (or conversely they are infinite and just as elusive as a result). So they’re a fantasy. If it’s systemic, the whole “system” is responsible and must be changed.
Agreed, the whole system must be changed, and in order to do that the best way is to take out the Motherboard of the Old System. Can’t run any system without the Controllers.
I do not agree the Hydra is a Fantasy in this case, there are REAL PEOPLE running this show, they are not fictions or fantasy. They can be identified, they can be targeted. They are not fictitious Boogeymen, they EXIST in reality. It is evident in all the systems we run, it is evident through History as well.
As to whether more will pop up into place after the current set is identified, perhaps they will, although IMHO with a comprehensive extermination plan that will take a while before it occurs again. When they do pop up again, you send them to the same place you sent the last bunch. Straight to HELL.
Come with me if you want to LIVE!
RE
Reverse Engineer post=3350 wrote: [As to a comparative numerical accounting goes of whether more Innocents were sent to the Great Beyond by Uncle Joe Stalin or the Romanoff family going back to Peter the Great, I can’t answer that for sure, but I would bet on a percentage of population basis at any given time the Romanoffs were responsible for more deaths than Stalin was.
You want to compare the deaths over a time period of 250 years to a time period of a little over 10? When considering deaths resulting from famine, estimates say that Stalin presided over anywhere from 30-60 million over the course of 12 years.
On the Backfire analogy, clearly we disagree, this is NOT a “new fire”, it is set SPECIFICALLY to combat an already ongoing conflagration. Not even setting the fire in a new forest either, setting it in all the places where the fire currently rages out of control. My analogy works better than yours does Ashvin, hands down here.
Of course you believe your analogy works better… it is YOUR plan after all. You think the plan is the best possible way to go about combating human forces of destruction right now, and I believe the odds are that your plan will only add to the destruction, or substitute one type of destruction for another, equally brutal type of destruction that ultimately gets us no closer to “saving” humanity than we were before. We can come up with random analogies to fit our arguments all day…
Far as your selective choices go of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot et al go as representative of the Evil Dictator outcome, it remains a possibility but does not HAVE to be the outcome. All I need to do is demonstrate ONE instance of a Dictator who improved the lives of the people he ruled over to show this outcome is not inevitable. I think Fidel Castro does that pretty well by his lonesome. There is little doubt that quite a few Innocents were sent to the Great Beyond when Castro took over, but on balance things mostly were better for the Cubans. At least they didn’t get raped like the Haitians did.
Why is your burden of proof to only show that counter-productive genocide is not INEVITABLE under your plan all of a sudden? As long as there is a 1 in 10 million chance that it will work without producing those horrible results, you are willing to go through with it? And, really, we should stick to comparing apples and apples. Plans that explicitly promote the formation of totalitarian group that uses systematic torture/genocide to achieve its stated goals. Castro isn’t a great comparison.
Considering “drawing on Spiritual energies” to combat the Forces of Evil, here you are starting to sound like Ben expecting to get an answer from the 5th Dimension. What you are saying in essence is that we should all just PRAY together here, and Kumbaya all will be well. I don’t buy this as a solution, as you say people are Praying RIGHT NOW for this insanity to end, but it AIN’T ENDING. I suggest a more terrestrial based approach and will leave the Spirit world to you and the 5th Dimension to Ben.
I didn’t say anything about praying for everything to get better. The core idea is to prevent as many OTHER people from supporting the Evil agenda at the top as possible, both physically and spiritually, because there will come a time when those at the top NEED that support. That goal can be accomplished in many ways, and spiritual warfare can be just as active as any other type of activism. You have schools/teaching (what you do), missions, charities and even stuff like exorcisms, designed to dispense with the Evil forces that have occupied people.
The point here is that there are other possibilities besides the OMMP. You may claim they are not working, but others would claim they are working in subtle ways by gradually undermining the support base needed by the elites to accomplish their long-term goals. Perhaps they are horribly wrong, but then again, you might be about the OMMP too.
I think you are being overly dismissive of this approach, because their is CLEARLY a spiritual element to what’s going on here with the NWO elites. Any plan to stop them or get rid of them must take that into account.
Reverse Engineer post=3352 wrote: Of course we can pick and choose what to use and what not to use in an argument. You do it every time you write an article here and snippet out quotes from other authors. To support your arguments, you select out quotes from other Bloggers who have a smilar POV or take on the situation you do. To undermine the opposition, you select out quotes which are so egregiously STUPID they make the opposition look ridiculous.
Why should the Bible be any different? Because it is ostensibly the Word of God? There are MANY authors who contributed to the Bible, consider them the Bloggers of their time. Some of them may have truly been Prophets inspired by Divine Direction guiding their Keyboard Fingers, others may simply have been tools of a particular faction seeking to get it’s agenda into the Christian Party Platform. Did they REALLY BELIEVE what they were writing? HTF do I know? They may have just been Propagandists for a particular spin.
This is not true. If I have ever quoted someone to a support a worldview or theory that misrepresents the totality of their own view, I would like you to point it out to me, because that would be a very misleading thing to do.
Biblical Christianity (and Judaism to a lesser extent) is quite literally a Theory of Everything, from the beginnings of the Universe to birth of the human species to Armageddon, the Rapture and the Day of the Lord.
Physicists that are attempting to develop a TOE cannot incorporate parts of Einstein’s realitivity theories that support their hypotheses and dismiss other parts that contradict them. It’s all or nothing for them – either their TOE is consistent with relativity or it’s not.
There is no dispute over what Einstein’s theory was, and Christianity is like the Theory of General Relativity in the religious world. No other religion has texts that are so well-preserved and consistent, both between copies of the texts and between texts by different authors. Even between the Books of the Old Testament and those of the New, the consistency of descriptions of people and events is stunning.
A lot of propaganda has surfaced over the centuries about the Bible’s hidden symbolism, or its inconsistencies, or mistranslations of certain passages, or missing texts that were allegedly a part of it, etc. But now, most people with a computer, some simple document analysis software and internet access can debunk most of that stuff, since all of the original writings are archived online.
[quote=ben post=3353]
I also found that to be a deeply inconsistent suggestion by ash. naturally he will claim otherwise, but implicit in the claim will probably be a judgement that’s not his to make.
Inconsistent… with what? What implicit judgment?
RE asked for ideas about other ways to deal with the NWO elites, and I gave him one. It’s not the path I have personally chosen to take at this point, but it undeniably a path that many have chosen to take and that many regard as a very productive one.
But anyway… I don’t think I will ever truly understand WTF it is you are talking about, ben, so…
how bout them Cs last night?? They’re taking it to Game 7 for sure.
ashvin post=3370 wrote: [quote=Reverse Engineer post=3350]As to a comparative numerical accounting goes of whether more Innocents were sent to the Great Beyond by Uncle Joe Stalin or the Romanoff family going back to Peter the Great, I can’t answer that for sure, but I would bet on a percentage of population basis at any given time the Romanoffs were responsible for more deaths than Stalin was.
You want to compare the deaths over a time period of 250 years to a time period of a little over 10? When considering deaths resulting from famine, estimates say that Stalin presided over anywhere from 30-60 million over the course of 12 years.
No, I specifically said “on a percentage of population basis at any given time”. In this way you normalize for the greater Population base Uncle Joe had around to send to the Great Beyond. In the time of Peter the Great, there were only around 14M TOTAL in Russia. In Catherine’s time, around 23M.Now, in the late 1700, numerous Plagues ran through Russia, resultant generally from warfare that the Tsars were always engaged in. From Wiki on the 1770s Plague
The Russian plague epidemic of 1770—1772, also known as the Plague of 1771, was the last massive outbreak of plague in central Russia, claiming between 52 and 100 thousand lives in Moscow alone (1/6 to 1/3 of its population).[1] The bubonic plague epidemic that originated in the Moldovan theatre of the 1768–1774 Russian-Turkish war in January 1770 swept northward through Ukraine and central Russia, peaking in Moscow in September 1771 and causing the Plague Riot. The epidemic reshaped the map of Moscow, as new cemeteries were established beyond the 18th century city limits.
Ruskies were dieing all over the place during the Reign of the Romanoffs. Famine, Plague, War & Death, the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse just about non-stop for 150 years or so. Pogroms on a regular basis. Cossacks riding the countryside murdering and raping willy nilly. You think Stalin was worse than that? He was a cupcake compared to the Romanoffs.
Of course you believe your analogy works better… it is YOUR plan after all.
Picking analogies that don’t work for the plan would be counterproductive 🙂
Why is your burden of proof to only show that counter-productive genocide is not INEVITABLE under your plan all of a sudden? As long as there is a 1 in 10 million chance that it will work without producing those horrible results
Nah, I don’t think the Odds are that bad. 10,000:1 worst case scenario IMHO. Better Odds than continuing down the current pathway in any event.
even stuff like exorcisms, designed to dispense with the Evil forces that have occupied people.
I am all for the Exorcism idea.
I think you are being overly dismissive of this approach, because their is CLEARLY a spiritual element to what’s going on here with the NWO elites. Any plan to stop them or get rid of them must take that into account.
I don’t see any reason a dual attack cannot be made here, both on the Spiritual end and Terrestrial based one. The more force brought to bear here the better. I’m all for enlisting the aid of paranormal Psychics and Scanners also.
in deference to perhaps sensitive TAE readers, I did NOT pick the Exploding Head shotsRE
This is not true. If I have ever quoted someone to a support a worldview or theory that misrepresents the totality of their own view, I would like you to point it out to me, because that would be a very misleading thing to do.
I never said you did that Ashvin. I merely pointed out that you Pick and Choose the quotes and text you wish to use in an argument. It’s selective.
Similarly, I select out quotes from the Bible which support my arguments, for instance the Revelation 18 quote I used above. I don’t think I am misrepresenting it to say that represents a description of a monetary system collapse, do you?
Far as what God’s Will actually is here, in totality it is somewhat difficult to elucidate it completely from the Bible. I am big on the Hellfire aspect though and Jesus did say:
Jesus wrote: 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.
So what if the Illuminati are the “right eye” that Jesus is talking about here?
Anyhow, analogies of the Bible to the General Theory of Relativity are pretty good, because neither one has been shown to be definitively true. You can still go in and pick apart General Relativity Theory, and you can use parts of it to justify other proofs without the entire thing being correct as well.
Point is, regardless of how consistent you think the Bible is or has been “proven” to be, it is not incumbent on anyone except a Fundy Christian who takes every last word written there as the Word of God to believe the whole thing or use the whole thing either. Nor do you have to use the entirety of a post by Ambrose Evans Pritchard to demonstrate what a Nincompoop he is. Usually one or two paragraphs of his stuff does that quite well these days.
ashvin post=3373 wrote: [quote=ben post=3353]
I also found that to be a deeply inconsistent suggestion by ash. naturally he will claim otherwise, but implicit in the claim will probably be a judgement that’s not his to make.
Inconsistent… with what? What implicit judgment?
RE asked for ideas about other ways to deal with the NWO elites, and I gave him one. It’s not the path I have personally chosen to take at this point, but it undeniably a path that many have chosen to take and that many regard as a very productive one.
But anyway… I don’t think I will ever truly understand WTF it is you are talking about, ben, so…
how bout them Cs last night?? They’re taking it to Game 7 for sure.
oh, right. of course. with what? silly me for being so characteristically obscure with my references.
lemme refresh your memory with your most recent comment at DD, which was a response to LG (bold), and which is just the latest of your box-shaped, Can’t Tell Shit From Shinola broadsides against icke and the other anarchist esotericists whom at the very least you should be cheering on for their anti-fascist empowerment:The rest might satisfy themselves with just sniffing at the entrance to the “rabbit hole” as Icke so cleverly puts it. I am now well into that rabbit hole and exploring.
Oh you are deep into the rabbit hole, alright. So deep that you have become a shill for the very same Illuminati that you spend your time railing against. How else do you explain your constant promotion of someone who is so clearly a Theosophist (Icke), hijacking most of his core ideas from admitted Satanists Helena Blavatsky and Alice Bailey, who incidentally formed Lucis Trust (i.e. the Lucifer Publishing Company). If you took the time to think critically about it, instead of accepting whatever he says because his ideas seem to mesh with your spiritual “research”, you would see that I am right.
You want to dismiss anyone who still uses science, rationality and logic to analyze various issues in the real world, because you cling to Tom Campbell’s pseudo-spiritual, pseudo-scientific TOE (which is itself a variation of much earlier New Age propaganda), all the while not realizing that’s exactly the best outcome the Illuminati and NWO promoters could ever hope for. They want to marginalize anyone who thinks with their head, and appeal to the self-deluded who believe they can be a God.
You are already talking like someone who will be eager to dispense with anyone who is not furthering what you believe to be humanity’s spiritual evolution, as if the rest of us are just holding you back with our “chicken shit”. Trust me when I say that I mean the following with no ill will towards you: I feel lucky that you are in your 60s rather than much younger, because we do not need any more people with your beliefs and your way with words in the trying decades ahead of us.
Your rabbit hole will pave the way for THEIR power and humanity’s descent into a never-ending abyss, so I beg you, climb out and get a grip before it’s too late.
over and out, ash.
SB, i think you will think highly of this op-ed in the LA Times on Puttnam’s Law. i obviously agree that Puttman’s Law is a dynamic that exists, but i also believe this article is retrogressive for what it omits – the well-documented, active social programming by the elite (might wanna click on some of Triv’s links sometime). which is why it went to print.
When it comes to contemporary American culture, its slogan ought to be “same old same-old.” Same old movies — one bombastic comic book adventure after another. Same old TV shows — one “Friends” clone after another, from “How I Met your Mother” to”Happy Endings”to”Whitney”to “Men at Work.” Same old journalism. Same old politics. There are, of course, outliers and renegades, but there seem to be fewer of them nowadays, and they are just that: outliers. For all the obsession with the new and different, we seem to be living within déjà vu.
If you are looking for an explanation for this cultural gravitational pull that drags everything to the predictable center, it may very well be what one might label “Puttnam’s Law” after David Puttnam, the British film producer. Puttnam’s Law should take its place alongside Murphy’s Law (anything that can go wrong will go wrong), Parkinson’s Law (work expands to fill the time available to complete it) and the Peter Principle (a person rises to the level of his or her incompetence) as a basic tenet of modern life. Indeed, if you understand Puttnam’s Law, you will understand a great deal about the cultural poverty that surrounds us…
Thus Puttnam’s Law: It is more acceptable to fail in conventional ways than in unconventional ways. And its corollary: The reward for succeeding in unconventional ways is less than the risk of failing in unconventional ways. In short, you can screw up with impunity so long as you screw up like everybody else…
There is a scene in Alexandra Pelosi’s documentary aboutGeorge W. Bush’s 2000 presidential campaign, “Journeys With George,” in which a reporter rises from his desk at the end of the day in a press room filled with other reporters and asks, “What is our story today?” In other words: What are they all going to be writing? One might think that reporters might strive to look for the odd angle or the unreported element — to separate themselves from the pack. You’d be wrong. That’s Puttnam’s Law.
Thus, even when you are wrong, you have the defense of working within the consensus. When you are wrong outside the consensus, you have no defense. You are on your own. That’s Puttnam’s Law again…
Puttnam’s Law is also readily applicable to politics and economics. Woe betide the politician who proposes something new and different, which is why Mitt Romney is still peddling tax cuts, even though they demonstrably failed in the Bush administration, and why President Obama followed a war plan in Afghanistan that was essentially forged by consensus and that changed only when the consensus changed. Puttnam’s Law also helps explain why Wall Street geniuses who should have known better pursued high-risk strategies that brought on the Great Recession and continue to pursue them, as JP Morgan recently showed. Everybody did it. The prudent ones were the outliers, and where are they now?
To be fair, America has long been in the grip of Puttnam’s Law. Conformity is comfort. Early in the 19th century Tocqueville remarked, “I know of no country in which there is so little independence of mind and real freedom of discussion as in America.” But the law operates with greater force now because the culture has become so status- and success-conscious at its upper echelons that there is more at stake by risking independence, and because mass culture itself intensifies the fear of being different. For all our vaunted individualism, majority not only rules in America; it rules with an iron hand.
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/tv/la-ca-puttnams-law-20120603,0,672709.story
there can’t be herding without predation. intraspecies predation.
RE said
Far as your selective choices go of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot et al go as representative of the Evil Dictator outcome, it remains a possibility but does not HAVE to be the outcome. All I need to do is demonstrate ONE instance of a Dictator who improved the lives of the people he ruled over to show this outcome is not inevitable. I think Fidel Castro does that pretty well by his lonesome. There is little doubt that quite a few Innocents were sent to the Great Beyond when Castro took over, but on balance things mostly were better for the Cubans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mongol_Empire_map.gif
Bring In The Genghis Man!
ben,
Oh, right, you believe my two comments (here and on DD) are “inconsistent” because you have done absolutely no research of your own on these issues, instead swallowing up every piece of slop Uncle El G spoon feeds you, and therefore have no idea what you are talking about.
Notice the word “pseudo-spiritual” in my response to El G. That means FALSE spirituality! David Icke is the biggest pseudo-spiritualist piece of crap out there. He has openly admitted to receiving many of his ideas about the solar logos and what not from “channeled” entities. These ideas just so happen to be the exact same ones given to Alice Bailey when she was also in communication with “ascended masters”. They are obvious perversions of the Bible and Christianity, as I have explained to you before. David Icke is a Luciferian Theosophist, whether he knows it or not.
I may even dedicate a topic to this issue on DD in the near future, just to finally squash all of this Icke nonsense from you and El G.
Not coincidentally, the best debunkers of Icke are true Christians. These are people who believe in the importance of using science, logic and rationality to tear apart BOGUS arguments, such as those presented by Icke, because their God gave them those tools to discern TRUTH from deception. They are also heavily spiritual people. In fact, it is their faith and spirituality which motivates them to put so much time and effort into debunking those who worship false gods or, worse yet, claim to BE GOD. That includes Icke along with the whole kitten caboodle of New Age and esoteric evangelists.
Reverse Engineer post=3377 wrote: I never said you did that Ashvin. I merely pointed out that you Pick and Choose the quotes and text you wish to use in an argument. It’s selective.
Similarly, I select out quotes from the Bible which support my arguments, for instance the Revelation 18 quote I used above. I don’t think I am misrepresenting it to say that represents a description of a monetary system collapse, do you?
Far as what God’s Will actually is here, in totality it is somewhat difficult to elucidate it completely from the Bible.
…
Anyhow, analogies of the Bible to the General Theory of Relativity are pretty good, because neither one has been shown to be definitively true. You can still go in and pick apart General Relativity Theory, and you can use parts of it to justify other proofs without the entire thing being correct as well.
Again, I’m not asking you to believe anything yourself. And I have never claimed ANY theory can be proven to be true.
It is absolutely untrue that you can use things from a theory that support your argument, while failing to account for things from that very same theory that go against your argument. A theory is not bits and pieces of evidence, and it does not have the luxury of being internally inconsistent yet still valid. Any physicist who does that with Relativity Theory is a bad one.
I am big on the Hellfire aspect though and Jesus did say:
Jesus wrote: 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.
So what if the Illuminati are the “right eye” that Jesus is talking about here?
Point is, regardless of how consistent you think the Bible is or has been “proven” to be, it is not incumbent on anyone except a Fundy Christian who takes every last word written there as the Word of God to believe the whole thing or use the whole thing either. Nor do you have to use the entirety of a post by Ambrose Evans Pritchard to demonstrate what a Nincompoop he is. Usually one or two paragraphs of his stuff does that quite well these days.
Your quotation and interpretation of Jesus above, through Matthew, is a GREAT example of why you are wrong on this issue. When considering the context in which that passage is written, among other things, it becomes very easy to figure out exactly what the passage is talking about. Here are the 17 verses that come after the two you quoted in Matthew 5:
Matthew531to48 wrote: “It was said, ‘WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE’; 32but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
33“Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.’ 34“But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. 36“Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37“But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil.
38“You have heard that it was said, ‘AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.’ 39“But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40“If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. 41“Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42“Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
43“You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ 44“But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46“For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47“If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
It then becomes clear that this entire part is talking about striving towards personal avoidance of sin against the Father at all costs (i.e. gouging out an eyeball or cutting off one hand), and, unfortunately for you, striving towards avoidance of retribution against your enemies. In fact, it emphasizes showing love and compassion for them. Therefore, your interpretation that Matthew 5:29 may be talking about going after the Illuminati with the modern Inquisition is clearly untenable.
ashvin post=3383 wrote:
I may even dedicate a topic to this issue on DD in the near future, just to finally squash all of this Icke nonsense from you and El G.
Wow! That sounds like fun!
You better drop it in the Smokehouse Barbecue. Its going to end up there anyhow.
RE
ashvin post=3384 wrote:
A theory is not bits and pieces of evidence, and it does not have the luxury of being internally inconsistent yet still valid.Well, in same Matthew chapter, before the quote in question, Jesus said the following
Matthew wrote: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Emphasis mine.
So Jesus specifies you go to Hell if you are angry without cause, but he doesn’t say what happens if you do have cause to be angry. I would say we have cause to be angry here. Also in terms of internal consistency, this whole passage seems inconsistent to me anyhow.
Also, I HAVE acknowledged many of the flaws and inconsistencies I see in Biblical writings, including various Miracles, the age of Methuselah etc and I could add to that the descripition of Earth creation and the timeline of Homo Sapiens.
You can make the case that all this is internally consistent, but it is still IMHO flawed so the theory as a whole falls apart anyway.
Anyhow, Biblical intepretation and philosophy of referencing aside here, do you still make the case Stalin was worse than the Romanoffs?
RE
ben post=3382 wrote:
Bring In The Genghis Man!
Ghengis Khan is actually a pretty good example here, so I’ll throw him in with Fidel as not such a bad Dictator. GK gets a real bad rap for all the death, destruction, raping and pillaging his Mongol Horde engaged in, but you do have to remember that prior to Ghengis getting all the nomadic Tribes organized, they were being eaten alive by expanding agrarian culture, particularly in China.
Far has his own Mongols were concerned, Ghengis was a pretty good Dictator even by History Book standards. From Wiki:
Wikipedia wrote:
Beyond his military accomplishments, Genghis Khan also advanced the Mongol Empire in other ways. He decreed the adoption of the Uyghur script as the Mongol Empire’s writing system. He also promoted religious tolerance in the Mongol Empire, and created a unified empire from the nomadic tribes of northeast Asia. Present-day Mongolians regard him as the founding father of Mongolia.[8]I am NOT saying Ghengis Khan was a particularly nice guy overall, but he certainly had some Good qualities, not the least of which was that he didn’t take any shit from the Chinese 🙂
RE
Reverse Engineer post=3386 wrote: Anyhow, Biblical intepretation and philosophy of referencing aside here, do you still make the case Stalin was worse than the Romanoffs?
I think it is useless to try and determine which nasty dictators
were “worse” than which other ones over time. By % of population killed per year of rule (assuming the deaths largely resulted from the ruler’s policies), Stalin is probably the worst to have ever lived. There are obviously other measures of Evilness, though.Like I said before, I do not think our goal here should be to commit less evil than the really evil guys when it’s all said and done. Replacing one set of evil people with a slightly less evil set of people is not some big accomplishment for humanity in my book.
ashvin post=3390 wrote: [quote=Reverse Engineer post=3386]Anyhow, Biblical intepretation and philosophy of referencing aside here, do you still make the case Stalin was worse than the Romanoffs?
I think it is useless to try and determine which nasty dictators
were “worse” than which other ones over time. By % of population killed per year of rule (assuming the deaths largely resulted from the ruler’s policies), Stalin is probably the worst to have ever lived. There are obviously other measures of Evilness, though.
By % of population this is highly unlikely, since I am quite sure Octavian and most certainly Caligula and Nero wiped out greater percentages of the population Rome was controlling, not to mention explicitly enslaving more people also. Uncle Joe just gets a real bad rpe because he was so recent.Then of course you also have Vlad the Impaler, who at one point stuck something like 10,000 people all staked out around the Castle. Not even Uncle Joe was THAT in your face. Not sure the total population Vlad was working with, but my bet is he would beat Stalin out by % figures also in a few short years of rule.
I disagree that is is “useless” to make this analysis, because it represents real history of Homo Sapiens, and you gotta get a good handle on how these dynamics operate in reality, not in some fantasy world you would like to see come true.
It would be JMHO that the current Oligarchy running the show ALREADY beats Uncle Joe by an Order of Magnitude. These folks are operating Globally, destroying the ecosystem and are no doubt ultimately responsible for 10s of millions of deaths already, and in the next few years should work into the Billions at astounding speed if a stop isn’t put to their level of destruction. Vlad the Impaler would be an Improvement and Uncle Joe a positive CUPCAKE compared to these folks.
Like I said before, I do not think our goal here should be to commit less evil than the really evil guys when it’s all said and done. Replacing one set of evil people with a slightly less evil set of people is not some big accomplishment for humanity in my book.
Disagreed. You are not going to work your way back to the Perfect World in a single step here, and Less Evil is better than Great Evil. You have to be a bit realistic here and take into account the realities of human history and human behavior. These things will not change overnight, so when presented with two bad alternatives, you take the one which is less worse.
I am just being Realistic and carefully observing Human Behavior and making the best of a bad situation.
RE
Vlad the Impaler and his brother Radu were sent to the court of the Sultan in Constantinople to be held as hostages, sort of like collateral, for the tribute that was paid every year to the Turks ad infinitum. While there for many years these royal boys were subjected to endless sodomy sort of in the Afghan way. No wonder then that Vlad made sure to have his eye for an eye when he came to power. He did help Romania to come into being as a tiny state caught between greater powers. He is something of a hero to the Romanians now, as they have never escaped from that position.
Reverse Engineer post=3392 wrote:
I am just being Realistic and carefully observing Human Behavior and making the best of a bad situation.RE
One addititon here with respect to REALISM, as opposed to Spiritual or 5th Dimension arguments here.
When I play a Chess Game, I do not rely on Prayer or Spirituality or 5th Dimension thinking to WIN the Game. I look for the WEAKNESSES in the position of my opponent, when I find them I go in for the KILL.
I am no Gary Kasparov by any means, and maybe Gary is so good because he does have access to Spiritual Chess algorithms in his mind, I don’t know HTF anybody could be that good without such. I do not have access to that though, I just work in the 4D world I know and mostly do OK with just that amount of knowledge. I achieved Master Level in my teens just by playing many games and memorizing the most successful openings and variations. But I never got so good as to be Grand Master, you really have to devote yourself to the game for that and at this point if you walk that road it probably does have a Spiritual aspect. You literally must LIVE for Chess to be a Grand Master.
For the argument in play here, the pont here is this. I do not work in the world of Spirituality or the 5th Dimension. I am a VERY practical person who observes how games are Won and Lost. When I commit to the Chessboard, I commit to do my best to WIN, and I use the tools at my disposal, my analytical mind mostly in this case and my memory, which is a pretty good one overall
History as it has played out is like a bunch of Chess Openings to me. This particular Game is long running here, approaching if not already in the End Game. You wanna win this game on an assymetric board with different pieces for Black and White still left in Play? You cannot do it by conventional means, and you certainly will not win if you do not take some risks.
The whole history of Homo Sapiens on Earth is one of EXTREME levels of Violence, through all recorded History that is true and you cannot deny it. If you are not prepared to do Violence when it becomes necessary to Win, you just will not WIN.
Who pulled the First Punch here? Who ASKED for the Battle? Not J6P. J6P just wanted to live in his nice McMansion with the White Picket Fence and a nice Pension that was PROMISED to him if he played by the Rules. Now the Rules Carpet has been pulled from under J6P, and so the final battle here for ALL the Marbles in the End Game commences thusly. So be it here, if that is what the Illuminati playing Black want, then that is what we shouldl give them playing White in this Game, and most surely NOT take any Prisoners either, because the Illuminati playing Black will not,
White got eaten up here in the early game, and we do not have much left to play with, nostly we just still have more Pawns on the Board. BUT, if we can get just ONE of those Pawns to the 8th Rank, we can Queen that Pawn, and then another after that one.
In a Chess Game on 64 squares with 8 pawns each, not too many Queens are possible usually. In a world of 6.9B Pawns and .1B Illuminati though? Another game entirely.
Time has come to Queen some Pawns left in this Game now. Time has come to Play to WIN! Forkk and Pin! Feignt and Misdiirect! Capture Space! Coordinate your ATTACK NOW! Before it is TOO LATE.
PLAY TO WIN!
RE
Reverse Engineer post=3392 wrote:
By % of population this is highly unlikely, since I am quite sure Octavian and most certainly Caligula and Nero wiped out greater percentages of the population Rome was controlling, not to mention explicitly enslaving more people also. Uncle Joe just gets a real bad rpe because he was so recent.I said % of the population per year. Joe gets a bad rep because a shit load of innocent Russians died under his rule as a direct result of his policies of ethnic deportation, collectivization, political persecution, etc. If the Russian population was on average about 100 million people at this time (probably less), then the lower end of the estimates put it at 30% of the population DEAD by the end of his rule (not tortured, injured, raped, or anything else). That’s about 3% per year.
Then of course you also have Vlad the Impaler, who at one point stuck something like 10,000 people all staked out around the Castle. Not even Uncle Joe was THAT in your face. Not sure the total population Vlad was working with, but my bet is he would beat Stalin out by % figures also in a few short years of rule.
Hitler’s Holocaust wasn’t THAT in our faces either. Millions of Jews systemically exterminated, among others, but most of it was out of sight in concentration camps.
I disagree that is is “useless” to make this analysis, because it represents real history of Homo Sapiens, and you gotta get a good handle on how these dynamics operate in reality, not in some fantasy world you would like to see come true.
It would be JMHO that the current Oligarchy running the show ALREADY beats Uncle Joe by an Order of Magnitude. These folks are operating Globally, destroying the ecosystem and are no doubt ultimately responsible for 10s of millions of deaths already, and in the next few years should work into the Billions at astounding speed if a stop isn’t put to their level of destruction. Vlad the Impaler would be an Improvement and Uncle Joe a positive CUPCAKE compared to these folks.
Like I said before, I do not think our goal here should be to commit less evil than the really evil guys when it’s all said and done. Replacing one set of evil people with a slightly less evil set of people is not some big accomplishment for humanity in my book.
Disagreed. You are not going to work your way back to the Perfect World in a single step here, and Less Evil is better than Great Evil. You have to be a bit realistic here and take into account the realities of human history and human behavior. These things will not change overnight, so when presented with two bad alternatives, you take the one which is less worse.
I am just being Realistic and carefully observing Human Behavior and making the best of a bad situation.
Seriously, I find it disturbing that you spend so much time comparing nasty leaders in order to justify your plan. WELL… Stalin was bad but he wasn’t AS BAD as Vlad the Impaler, and Vlad wasn’t as bad as Hitler, and Ghengis Khan was better than them all.
You can run circles around the facts all day, but they won’t change. Plans like yours have almost always resulted in extremely destructive consequences for humanity, especially in recent history. You are not the one being realistic here, you are the one being Idealistic and ignoring human dynamics at large scales for the sake of your argument.
You are making all kinds of unwarranted assumptions – that your plan will be carried out “properly”, that the people carrying it out will not abuse their powers, that it is a stepping stone towards creating a “perfect world”, that it is an absolutely necessary risk we must take, that Evil is justified to battle Evil as long as it’s “less evil”, that the chances of success are high because the “force multiplier of oil” will be gone.
What does that last one even mean? Who is right now in control of the soon to be scarce amounts of oil/resources in the world. Why is this an advantage for the vengeful masses? How will your Army of the Righteous get organized, communicate and carry out its functions in an orderly manner around the entire world? When do you launch the plan? Are you waiting for the global economy and rule of law to entirely break down, plunging societies into chaos, before you launch the plan?
Most of my questions in this discussion about how the plan will ACTUALLY work have received vague and ultimately unsatisfactory answers. They reek of idealism, not realism. SB was exactly right when saying this:
And so, here Ash is trying to convince RE of the error of RE’s desires/agenda while at the same time I’m sure Ash will also admit that we are going to inevitably see these very same agendas carried out the world over.
In fact, I believe an explicit part of the NWO agenda is something very similar in structure and claimed motives to the OMMP. It will use economic/sociopolitical upheaval to justify radical, totalitarian policies that purport to take out the Old Order Trash and lead us towards a Utopia on Earth. Neither you, nor I nor anyone else here will be in charge of this movement. When you hear about it, you will be screaming “DON’T LISTEN TO THEM, THEY ARE LYING TO YOU!” – but the ignorant masses will not hear you. Many of them will follow right along and they will actively support the transition. Others will resist, for moral, ethical, spiritual, practical reasons, whatever – it doesn’t matter – they will be deemed Defenders of the Old Order and dealt with accordingly.
The whole history of Homo Sapiens on Earth is one of EXTREME levels of Violence, through all recorded History that is true and you cannot deny it. If you are not prepared to do Violence when it becomes necessary to Win, you just will not WIN.
Some of us don’t want to be stuck in a perpetual cycle of brutal Chess Games, believe it or not. Implicit in your analogy is the fact that, even if we use our few pieces to make the desperate moves that prolong the game, the game will simply continue, except now you will have two sets of pieces that are vying for global dominance through bloody warfare, and neither one of them will be good for the rest of us who are sitting by and watching it all go down, even though they will both CLAIM to be.
Ash,
You appear to be arguing with a religious fanattic, less productive than arguing with a drunk, and all this time I doubted you for being hyper-rational. My Bad. 🙂
Glennjeff wrote:
Ash,You appear to be arguing with a religious fanattic, less productive than arguing with a drunk, and all this time I doubted you for being hyper-rational. My Bad.
First you insult me by calling me a “religious fanatic” and a “drunk”, then you insult Ashvin for engaging in dialogue with me. At least when SB dropped in on this debate, he contributed something worthwhile. You just throw two sentences worth of low quality Napalm.
You wanna do some name-calling here? OK, fine. Scum sucking imbeciles like you give trolling a bad name. Go fuck yourself.
Ashvin wrote: Some of us don’t want to be stuck in a perpetual cycle of brutal Chess Games, believe it or not. Implicit in your analogy is the fact that, even if we use our few pieces to make the desperate moves that prolong the game, the game will simply continue, except now you will have two sets of pieces that are vying for global dominance through bloody warfare, and neither one of them will be good for the rest of us who are sitting by and watching it all go down, even though they will both CLAIM to be.
What you want is not a part of this. When an apple falls from a tree, it follows a path accelerating downward in a very predictable manner. Homo Sapiens is a little more complicated, but follows patterns that are quite predictable also, just like gravity. All you have to do is look at history without being encumbered by what you “want” coloring your perspective.
A dinosaur may want to be a bird with feathers and warm blood, but it doesn’t happen overnight. Nor is Homo Sapiens going to evolve overnight into some Higher Organism that doesn’t have the behaviors described so well by history. if I am going to produce a General Theory of Relativity, I am going to try to make it fit the facts. What I write fits the facts. Live with it.
RE
RE,
I think we have said just about all there is to say on this one.
I shouldn’t even have stipulated to the accuracy of your chess analogy in my last response, but I did…
Like I said before, we can customize analogies to fit our arguments all day. You say the OMMP is the equivalent of getting the pawns across the board and making them Queens, giving us a chance to win the ultimate game of Chess, and I obviously disagree completely.
Maybe someone else has thoughts on all this, but we’re just going around in circles now.
I do not think the debate was counter-productive, though. It is very important to contemplate and discuss these issues now, because they WILL become our reality in one form or another.
Agreed. We have covered this pretty well. Ialso think it has been very productive and illuminating. LOL.
Call it a Stalemate. We’ll cross swords again another day.
RE
RE,
If you carefully deconstruct my sentence structure you may realise that i did not call anyone a drunk. I actually stated that arguing with a religious fanatic is less productive than arguing with a drunk.
I also do not believe that Ash would take offense at my commentary.
How childish is “You spoke to me and then you spoke to him, therefore you insulted him”, Get a grip RE.
Amongst other things, smileys indicate a good natured / playfull approach to communicating.
A quote from a neo-religious text “A Course in Miracles”
“If you want peace, teach peace to learn it”I got the sentence structure dimwit. The point of your whole 2 sentence post was to undermine everything written through an ad hom attack on the author, yours truly. You made ZERO worthwhile contribution to the disucssion and you drop in at the end to declare one of the authors a Religious Fanatic less worthwhile to debate than a drunk, and you insinuate that Ashvin is a fool for getting dragged into the debate.
Man, I have gone up against trolls on TBP who pull this kind of jackass stupidity every day as a means to disrupt valid discussion; and you are an amateur at it. You threw the first punch here and if you were capable of reading for comprehension you would know by now I have about ZERO interest in making peace with brain dead morons who make such attacks. Take your ad hom argument and stick it where the sun don’t shine.
Have a Nice Day.
RE
Oh, and why would I waste my time with an ad hominim, simple, you are an arsehole that refuses reasonable feedback, which was what Ash provided RE.
That is the reason that so many blogs have given you the boot.
By the way, Ultra high IQ, diverse high distinction education, multi talented, wealthy and a successful long term marriage.
I acknowlege your troll accusations, I am the troll of TAE, and I like to catch a nice fish every now and then.
Say goodnight sweetheart.
Glennjeff post=3424 wrote:
By the way, Ultra high IQ measured in negative imaginary numbers, Ultra tiny penis, diverse high distinction education blowing my Professors at Cambridge, multi talented bottom boy, wealthy in debt money and a successful long term marriage to my sister.
Fixed that for you.
RE
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