El Gallinazo Surfaces: Off the Reservation
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For you fans of the writing of El G, he has surfaced to publish again on DD, at least for the moment. You can find his “Off the Reservation” article at:
https://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/2012/04/10/off-the-reservation/
RE
Let me be the first to say that I respect El G’s decision here. I, for one, am going to really miss his contributions – I have learned a lot from him both on TAE and through private e-mails, via numerous links to quality sources of information and his own commentary on that information. I also genuinely feel bad that my comments to him about the US Constitution constituted the “straw” that broke his back.
That being said, I am not sorry that I made those comments. I was simply defending myself against accusations that I, and TAE in general, are irrelevant by a long-time reader and contributor who had decided that his “big picture” was bigger than everyone elses’ here, and that everything else they write is irrelevant unless they acknowledge that. In that same vein, I take issue with this sentence in El G’s article on DD:
The staff of TAE chooses to believe that the coming collapse is just a mindless Hegelian unfolding of the age old boom-bust cycle
This is flat out wrong and misleading. Since, afaik, I&S have never referenced Hegel before, I presume El G is mainly referring to me and my articles, which incorporate philosophical concepts. His comment reflects the mentality that, if someone doesn’t believe that everything happening is 100% attributable to “controlled demolition” and doesn’t make that the core subject of everything they write, then they have become irrelevant. Perhaps El G has forgot how many times I have written about and referenced the intentional/planned nature of what’s happening now, but that doesn’t mean I haven’t done so in both articles and comments.
(see The Math is Different at the Top Parts I-IV, Jumping the Treasury Shark, Bailing Out the Thimble With The Titanic, Welcome to Slaughter-House Finance, Die Wahrheit Macht Frei, The Torture of the European Periphery, Our Depraved Future of Debt Slavery Parts I-III)
Granted, my approach to those issues are not the same as someone like Alex Jones, and I do not have nearly the same level of in-depth analysis on them, because that’s just not what I do or how I think. I like to present them in what I feel is the most realistic way, instead of one that plays on emotions and anger towards the “all-powerful” elites TSB and blames them for every aspect of our collective predicaments. Ironically, the reason why I began to reference the “controlled demolition” aspect of what’s happening less and less is because I felt that it was too narrow a perspective and did not account for the nuanced “big picture” that we really have to deal with (in which there is a very significant chance that any plans for a global totalitarian police state will fail).
Similarly, the fact that we don’t spend time discussing geopolitics and the “war on terror” here does not mean we are ignorant of what’s going on in the world and how it is extremely inter-connected to financial/economic issues. It simply means that we find more value in focusing on what we know for certain about the financial system, instead of speculating on events/effects that we can’t possibly know – such as when an upcoming war with Iran will occur and how exactly it will affect the price of oil and the global economy in the medium to long-term.
Anyway, for the sake of brevity, I will just say that what we do here at TAE, and specifically what I do here (since I can speak best for myself), is anything but “mindless” or ignorant of broad conspiratorial forces at play. That is simply a misunderstanding of my personal “big picture”, which, I will freely admit, is partly due to the fact that I jump around from topic to topic as I see fit and embrace abstract, philosophical strains of thought. As I said before, though, I respect El G’s opinions and his decision to focus his efforts elsewhere, and I wish him the best of luck! There is no doubt we will all need plenty of it in the near future.
Oh, and one more thing. In El G’s last thread here, he brought up the issue of what we should be doing above and beyond lifeboat preparations, which may prove to be useless in the event of totalitarian rule that sees any and all protections from the rule of law thrown out the window. So I would like to add my brief contribution to that issue here:
Be prepared to kill your neighbors.
If the history of active resistance movements in the 20th century have taught us anything, it is that they will not be remotely successful unless they find ways to remain clandestine (obviously) and to prevent others who are not actively resisting from informing on them. The only way to achieve the latter is to make sure that any potential informers fear you more than they fear TPTSB. You must let it be known that anyone who informs on the resistance or aids the rulers in any way will be punished by death, and then you will have to make good on that threat many times before it sinks in.
For those of us who aren’t in the “right” frame of mind to kill our neighbors, or don’t have the skills or desire to engage in lifelong avoidance strategies, we will just have to fall back on lifeboat preps and pray everything works out for the best.
we have normality. i repeat, we have normality. anything you still can’t cope with is therefore your own problem.
douglas adams
ashvin post=2163 wrote: Oh, and one more thing. In El G’s last thread here, he brought up the issue of what we should be doing above and beyond lifeboat preparations, which may prove to be useless in the event of totalitarian rule that sees any and all protections from the rule of law thrown out the window. So I would like to add my brief contribution to that issue here:
Be prepared to kill your neighbors.
If the history of active resistance movements in the 20th century have taught us anything, it is that they will not be remotely successful unless they find ways to remain clandestine (obviously) and to prevent others who are not actively resisting from informing on them. The only way to achieve the latter is to make sure that any potential informers fear you more than they fear TPTSB. You must let it be known that anyone who informs on the resistance or aids the rulers in any way will be punished by death, and then you will have to make good on that threat many times before it sinks in.
For those of us who aren’t in the “right” frame of mind to kill our neighbors, or don’t have the skills or desire to engage in lifelong avoidance strategies, we will just have to fall back on lifeboat preps and pray everything works out for the best.
Lifeboat Point #10
keep your head down and your mouth shut. at all costs.
failing to heed #10 is also the 41st Way To Lose Your Future.
I understand how El G feels – in many ways my views are extremely similar to his, but his writing style is fluid and artistic while mine is more rigid (and less appealing to the majority of people).
I think El G is correct in much of his analysis, but I think he made a miscalculation.
TAE has chosen to serve a niche market – and a much needed one.
El G is correct that TAE isn’t the BIG, BIG picture, but nor is it trying to be.
I have no doubt that TAE’s controllers have a good reason for this approach – perhaps to keep the site’s material from triggering the automatic mental shut down mode when about 50% of the population reads non Central State sanctioned ideas.
Or maybe it is to fly under the radar of the Debt Dollar Tyrants – no use putting on a sheep suit for the wolves.
While TAE isn’t my “everything in one bottle,” it is still very valuable for its intended person.
Despising the nature of tyrants, I think it is great that other people can choose to focus on things differently than the way I might think is optimal.
I tend value content of character more than anything else – even agreement. I sense a good, kind, helping character here at TAE and that’s a good thing.
I get the same “vibe” from Charles Hugh Smith and his contributor Zeus as well.
Good people is where it is at.
I also appreciate much of Karl Denninger’s analysis, but I really don’t like his tyrant personality issues… Not cool. But he’s free to be that way and I still value much of his insight and input and disregard what doesn’t resonate.
El G, I’d love to have you back here, but I’ll find where you post anyway… Just remember that TAE never intended to be the “be all end all” of world affairs. I agree there should be a place for that, it just isn’t TAE.
Having said that, I think a forum dedicated to “Conspiracy Theory” here at TAE would add value to TAE. Those that want to contribute could and those that don’t could stay far away.
“Can’t we all get along?” 😉
PS – Ash, I agree with you that Capitalism ends ugly every single time. I also am convinced Communism does as well – and usually much faster. The former takes time to aggregate corrupting power where the latter starts out with corrupting power.
The root cause is human selfishness… at the top, in the management class, in the middle class, in the low class and even among the poverty stricken. Those that read the Bible might phrase it thusly, “failing to love (care for) one another as as we love (care for) ourselves.” AKA, sin.
No system can overcome selfishness.
Having said that, the best chance at a workable system contains two elements, IMHO:
1. Free markets.
2. A population that absolutely ABHORS anything BIG.I think that could work for a long, long time, but the problem is nobody cares about their society enough to really invest any mental capital into understanding why those two principles are so very important.
Debt Dollar Tyranny would be a capital crime, of course.
A 5% tax to take care of the poor and needy where 93% of the money would actually have to help poor and needy would be doable, too – or similar. The point is I’m not talking about burying the disabled the poor here.
TheTrivium4TW post=2179 wrote: I understand how El G feels – in many ways my views are extremely similar to his, but his writing style is fluid and artistic while mine is more rigid (and less appealing to the majority of people).
You think you have “appeal” issues with YOUR writing style? Walk a Mile in MY shoes buddy! LOL
I tend value content of character more than anything else – even agreement. I sense a good, kind, helping character here at TAE and that’s a good thing.
Agreed. One senses a good “Heart” from Stoneleigh, Ilargi and Ashvin also. Of course though, neither Heart alone or Mind alone can work, you need both working sychronously for the whole system to work. Even if you all have uderlying good nature and feelings, if you do not agree on some critical questions the mind pops up, you have disharmony. As I read it, El G’s mental costruct diverged too much from the construct here on TAE to continue onward. JMHO though.
I also appreciate much of Karl Denninger’s analysis, but I really don’t like his tyrant personality issues… Not cool. But he’s free to be that way and I still value much of his insight and input and disregard what doesn’t resonate.
Karl is another story altogether. I have a History with Karl, and I am writing some on this stuff tonight. More coming soon in the Diner on this one.
El G, I’d love to have you back here, but I’ll find where you post anyway… Just remember that TAE never intended to be the “be all end all” of world affairs. I agree there should be a place for that, it just isn’t TAE.
It seems unlikely at the moment El G will return to TAE, and I am not even sure he will continue to write on DD. Only time will tell on that one.
Having said that, I think a forum dedicated to “Conspiracy Theory” here at TAE would add value to TAE. Those that want to contribute could and those that don’t could stay far away.
PLUG TIME
DD Conspiracy Forum
https://www.doomsteaddiner.org/forum/index.php?board=7.0
No system can overcome selfishness.
Disagreed. See POTLATCH
RE
TheTrivium4TW post=2192 wrote: Hi RE,
Potlach is not an expression of selfishness, but of giving, no?
sticking my nose in here, Triv. from a recent dean henderson article:
One of the most dangerous dualities which emerged is the notion that our self-interest is naturally at odds with altruistic behavior. I write a paper titled The Importance of Selfishness for a more radical sane professor named Tom Birch. The argument goes something like this:
Indigenous cultures hold a high regard for gift-giving. The Lakota Sioux have a giveaway ceremony. The Athabaska conduct potlatches. In Ituri Pygmy society the hunter who makes the kill always eats last. In all hunting and gathering societies there is an understanding that giving is a means of gaining respect and is thus the ultimate act of selfishness…
In indigenous cultures buying and selling occurred only at a local level. Economy was based on sharing, reciprocation and an egalitarian dispersal of resources. Those whose kindness was greatest were honored and respected leaders of their communities.
Since there was no perceived duality between the interest of oneself and the interests of the whole tribe, the village worldview remained un-fractured and intact – reinforcing a loving, sharing viewpoint towards all living things, rather than one of violence and suppression which has accompanied the rise of industrial capitalism. When resources are derived at a local level it is obvious that any hoarding of goods results in the demise of both community and self.
Self-interest is furthered by a healthy respect for the ecosystem that sustains everyone.As commerce moved beyond a local level, it needed justification for the short term greed which propelled it outward. Self-interest increasingly came to be viewed in terms of money and property, as a system of class sprang up.
Equality and sharing gave way to colonization of resources in far-away foreign lands and the exploitation of cheap labor through a rigged international monetary system. Western philosophies which promote dualism and atomism are merely myths which were fashioned to rationalize this colonization process.
Self-interest became associated with this cunning colonial approach to attaining wealth, probably so that potential competition could be intellectually snuffed out. This supposed self-interest is now played out daily on the world’s stock exchanges and in corporate boardrooms around the world.
https://theintelhub.com/2012/04/09/the-importance-of-selfishness/
TheTrivium4TW post=2179 wrote: Having said that, I think a forum dedicated to “Conspiracy Theory” here at TAE would add value to TAE. Those that want to contribute could and those that don’t could stay far away.
We could add a separate section for that, perhaps. I just figured people could start those threads in the Open Comments section.
PS – Ash, I agree with you that Capitalism ends ugly every single time. I also am convinced Communism does as well – and usually much faster. The former takes time to aggregate corrupting power where the latter starts out with corrupting power.
The root cause is human selfishness… at the top, in the management class, in the middle class, in the low class and even among the poverty stricken. Those that read the Bible might phrase it thusly, “failing to love (care for) one another as as we love (care for) ourselves.” AKA, sin.
No system can overcome selfishness.
I largely agree with the sentiments expressed in the comments by RE and ben, and I think this discrepancy is a fundamental part of why you and I, and perhaps El G, have different “big pictures”. If I could sum up the difference in one sentence, it would be this:
The system breeds the sociopathic elites, rather than the other way around.
Capitalist industrial systems are perhaps the most efficient at manufacturing such people, but, as you point out, it is something endemic in all complex, large-scale systems. It is these structures of political economy, rather than an innate human tendency to be selfish, that bring out the worst qualities in humanity and lead to concentrated (and coordinated) pockets of wealth and power.
Assuming the theories of peak oil/resources and net energy decline are true (to me, that is kind of like saying “assuming the theories of evolution and general relativity are true”), then we must ask ourselves what will happen to the complexity/scale of our political economies. And what that, in turn, will mean for the prospects of TPTSB that have traditionally exerted vast amounts of influence/control over national/international/global human society. I do not believe there is any simple answer to the latter question, but I do believe we can say with confidence that they are currently being, and will continue to be, confronted with events that are outside of their control and deleterious to their plans.
ashvin post=2204 wrote: I largely agree with the sentiments expressed in the comments by RE and ben, and I think this discrepancy is a fundamental part of why you and I, and perhaps El G, have different “big pictures”. If I could sum up the difference in one sentence, it would be this:
The system breeds the sociopathic elites, rather than the other way around.
…
but I do believe we can say with confidence that they are currently being, and will continue to be, confronted with events that are outside of their control and deleterious to their plans.Hi Ash, yes we do disagree on the selfish nature of people. Perhaps it is a definition issue. My definition of “selfish” is not caring for others equal to oneself.
If you think everyone cares for others equal to themselves, but the system somehow forces them to buy a Beemer for $50k instead of buying a Corolla for $10k and spending $40k feeding the starving, then we disagree. In fact, one of my main thesis is that Big Finance Capital are experts at using our selfish nature against us. The bubble only occurred because society was greedy. They couldn’t do it alone – and Nicole is right that the prey played right into the hands of the predator. She’s right – but I’m going to spend the majority of time warning the community about the r*pist.
Of course the system plays its role – but it is ever so easy for selfish, narcissistic people to fit right into that systemic role, isn’t it? We all want to be seen as good, but doing good is where the hard work comes in.
How many Nicoles are there out of the 1,000,000 billion who could do what she is doing? I know I’m getting almost no love from friends and family and most strangers. Most people who do “get it” have been “burned by the stove,” as it were.
Regarding your theory that conspiracy theorists think of Big Finance Capital as God Himself with super control of everything… who does that? Don’t say Alex Jones – because he doesn’t.
No, they aren’t in control of everything, but they are in control of every major establishment organization that they deem critical to their agenda. At least at the top. The lower level folks tend to follow orders and don’t need to know details.
They just want their pension and to avoid hassle for the most part – that’s the economic over lay in play.
Don’t think that these crooks didn’t know a bust was gonna come, though. They knew a bust was going to come in 1913 when they set this system up. They’ve been preparing for it ever since.
That’s why you and I eat their losses and Corzine can steal $1.6 billion, lie about it under oath, get caught lying and nothing happens.
But the farmer who sells a portion of his cows to sell raw milk gets $1,000,000 bond as he’s thrown into jail.
Now, nobody has been injured (except Big Pharma profits from healthy people – got that?), but he’s in prison while Big Pharma executes as many people as died on 911 every 11 DAYS and nothing happens.
Anatomy of a Conspiracy
https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2012/03/08/anatomy-of-a-conspiracy/
BTW, That’s about 1,200,000 people DEADER THAN A DOOR NAIL at the hands of Big Pharma since 911.
This would be the #1 news story in the nation if the media would pound on it. But they won’t.
Just like I explained to the “Democracy Now” woman who tried to argue DN wasn’t controlled, “Controlled.”
They are controlled. There are limits.
An why wouldn’t there be? If I controlled who bought major news networks, I wouldn’t allow anyone hostile to my interests to buy the station (I’d disallow the loan or outbid them with friendlies).
Economics 101.
@TheTrivium4TW If there was ever and icon for TPTB to laugh at us in public and show us how little they regard us and our intelligence it is this despicable Corzine character. His smirking, grinning, Mickey The Dunce act testimony made me nauseous. If he isn’t living proof that they control the press,media, legal system, regulatory agencies etc. What or who is? Any doubts I had about an inner circle of arrogant greedy swine running the show were cured by him. He makes me ashamed as well as angry at the corruption in the system.
Nobody realizes just how much of their own behaviors are acculturated. I our society since Greed is so well rewarded and has been for a VERY long time, the assumption is that Greed is a fundamental and uderlying attribute of the Human Species. I do not believe this to be true.
Greed is one of many attributes Homo Sapiens can display, and it can be rewarded or punished right from birth really. Societies can develop in many different ways, and they have through the evoltuon of the species, but Greed Reward in its current form is a very recent development overall.
The Potlatch societies developed unde much different parameters in a time of great surplus relative to the total number of people inhabiting a given ecosystem. That they existed at all however demonstrates conclusively that Greed is not an inherent zHuman Behavior, but merely one which is learned in certai environments under a certain set of parameters. Once the society develops around that, its a very difficult Cancer to remove. It metasticizes quickly.
Of the people who discuss these questions with me, I tend to be in the minority overall, since I have great faith in the resilience of Human Nature and the ability of Good to Triumph over Evil. I look at fundamentals of human nature and at the parameters we live under, and I see that there are posibilities for change and for a Better Tomorrow. I just do not see that those changes will come without a massive dislocation in our current ways of living or without a massive die off of many currently walking the Earth.
Evil will not win this battle, not in the end, not IMHO. It is written, “The Meek shall Inherit the Earth”. I don’t buy that because I am a Christian or even a Biblical Scholar, I am neither. I believe it to be true because it is what I see in nature. Power Seekers eventually self immolate, their own Greed consumes them. The societies they build also self immolate eventually. The problem for all of us living here and now in this time frame is that we are at the end of a grand supercycle where Greed has consumed Mankind. When it goes down, and go down it will, it will nto be pretty at all. In the end though, I believe in my heart that some will emerge standing from the Zero Point, and it will not be the Illuminati, it will be some few of the Meek who see it through to the end of the dark days to come. It will take Luck and Planning, and probably the Finger of God to see you through, but I think it can be done.
It is my goal in writing as I do to encourage all not to Lose Hope, not to Give Up here. Yes, the immediate future is very bleak indeed. Not Hopeless though, not yet. It is only Hopeless if you GIVE UP Hope. I am not willing to do that, and I do not think once the Conduits fail that this Evil system can be perpetuated. It WILL come down, just as the Tower of Babel came crashing down. Wait for it. When it comes, you will KNOW it. Then is the once in a millenia CHANCE you have to make the CHANGE that we MUST make to survive as a species. It CAN be done.
Golden Oxen post=2218 wrote: @TheTrivium4TW If there was ever and icon for TPTB to laugh at us in public and show us how little they regard us and our intelligence it is this despicable Corzine character. His smirking, grinning, Mickey The Dunce act testimony made me nauseous. If he isn’t living proof that they control the press,media, legal system, regulatory agencies etc. What or who is? Any doubts I had about an inner circle of arrogant greedy swine running the show were cured by him. He makes me ashamed as well as angry at the corruption in the system.
Exactly – but Corzine is actually good for America. So is Obama.
Their offenses are so grand, their lies so “in your face,” one either has to admit the table is tilted, the game is rigged, as George Carlin said, or one has to run away as fast as they can to get under their bed covers and hide.
People who used to resist the idea criminal oligarchs ran the show are now sending me emails about how they rig the oil markets and the media covers it up.
We went insane all at once… but we are waking up one at a time…
And that worries “the establishment.”
The more they squeeze and asset strip the people, the more the people identify the tyranny and resist it.
Properly understood, DHS is the receivership arm of these criminals – set up to enforce the national bankruptcy. That’s their plan, anyway.
We need to work to tip over their “apple cart.” Many won’t listen now, but they will know who to contact when this thing really gets ugly.
Reverse Engineer post=2219 wrote: Nobody realizes just how much of their own behaviors are acculturated. I our society since Greed is so well rewarded and has been for a VERY long time, the assumption is that Greed is a fundamental and uderlying attribute of the Human Species. I do not believe this to be true.
Greed is one of many attributes Homo Sapiens can display, and it can be rewarded or punished right from birth really. Societies can develop in many different ways, and they have through the evoltuon of the species, but Greed Reward in its current form is a very recent development overall.
The Potlatch societies developed unde much different parameters in a time of great surplus relative to the total number of people inhabiting a given ecosystem. That they existed at all however demonstrates conclusively that Greed is not an inherent zHuman Behavior, but merely one which is learned in certai environments under a certain set of parameters. Once the society develops around that, its a very difficult Cancer to remove. It metasticizes quickly.
Of the people who discuss these questions with me, I tend to be in the minority overall, since I have great faith in the resilience of Human Nature and the ability of Good to Triumph over Evil. I look at fundamentals of human nature and at the parameters we live under, and I see that there are posibilities for change and for a Better Tomorrow. I just do not see that those changes will come without a massive dislocation in our current ways of living or without a massive die off of many currently walking the Earth.
Evil will not win this battle, not in the end, not IMHO. It is written, “The Meek shall Inherit the Earth”. I don’t buy that because I am a Christian or even a Biblical Scholar, I am neither. I believe it to be true because it is what I see in nature. Power Seekers eventually self immolate, their own Greed consumes them. The societies they build also self immolate eventually. The problem for all of us living here and now in this time frame is that we are at the end of a grand supercycle where Greed has consumed Mankind. When it goes down, and go down it will, it will nto be pretty at all. In the end though, I believe in my heart that some will emerge standing from the Zero Point, and it will not be the Illuminati, it will be some few of the Meek who see it through to the end of the dark days to come. It will take Luck and Planning, and probably the Finger of God to see you through, but I think it can be done.
It is my goal in writing as I do to encourage all not to Lose Hope, not to Give Up here. Yes, the immediate future is very bleak indeed. Not Hopeless though, not yet. It is only Hopeless if you GIVE UP Hope. I am not willing to do that, and I do not think once the Conduits fail that this Evil system can be perpetuated. It WILL come down, just as the Tower of Babel came crashing down. Wait for it. When it comes, you will KNOW it. Then is the once in a millenia CHANCE you have to make the CHANGE that we MUST make to survive as a species. It CAN be done.
I take it you don’t believe the literal story of Adam and Eve and Cain and Abel. 😉
As for greed being “rewarded” – only in the mind of the greedy. 😉
Divide you day up into increments and determine how much of your day is done to benefit you and yours and how much is done to benefit others.
How is it caring to buy a luxury vehicle instead of a more practical vehicle and spend the rest of the money feeding the starving?
Do you think a starving 10 year old whose parents are both dead would view how Americans live and consider them to care about his welfare the same way we care about our own welfare?
@ben, I get the gist of what Henderson is saying – but the difference is in definition. I actually agree that it is in our true “selfish” self interest to treat others as we would like to be treated. An enlightened “selfish” person would actually treat others equal to themselves because that’s the ONLY way to lasting peace, prosperity and happiness.
But that’s not how I originally defined “selfish.” I defined it as failing to care about others equal to oneself and that is how people act on a daily basis. I know – people don’t want their dirty laundry exposed, but I deal in reality when I can.
That doesn’t mean that kindness doesn’t happen – it does. All the time. But caring for others EQUAL to how one cares for oneself is no small j-o-b.
BTW RE,
I believe the following with all my heart and all my essence – “good lasts forever, everything else is a waste of time.”
However, I don’t believe that greed laced humanity will pull it off, rather, I believe that supernatural intervention will be required to keep narcissistic humanity from destroying this entire planet.
Even so, “good lasts forever, everything else is a waste of time” – so why waste what little time we have hurdling through space on a big rock?
I know this – and I still end burning far too much time on “waste of time” stuff.
@ben, I get the gist of what Henderson is saying – but the difference is in definition. I actually agree that it is in our true “selfish” self interest to treat others as we would like to be treated. An enlightened “selfish” person would actually treat others equal to themselves because that’s the ONLY way to lasting peace, prosperity and happiness.
But that’s not how I originally defined “selfish.” I defined it as failing to care about others equal to oneself and that is how people act on a daily basis. I know – people don’t want their dirty laundry exposed, but I deal in reality when I can.
hey Triv,
what i took from the article was that people in gift economies gave in order to receive status. that giving of both assistance and material things elevated one’s social status above others’. the system was set up to deliberately neutralize the human tendency to implicitly care about oneself more than another. while i imagine that a public sense of superiority was looked down upon, it stands to reason that giving a lot and being respected more than less-giving people satisfied peoples’ internal desire for the power that comes with an elevated social status. perhaps egotistical, emotionally selfish members found that by giving more than their fair share of material goods they could achieve more interpersonal success than they otherwise would.
Indigenous cultures hold a high regard for gift-giving. The Lakota Sioux have a giveaway ceremony. The Athabaska conduct potlatches. In Ituri Pygmy society the hunter who makes the kill always eats last. In all hunting and gathering societies there is an understanding that giving is a means of gaining respect and is thus the ultimate act of selfishness…
In indigenous cultures buying and selling occurred only at a local level. Economy was based on sharing, reciprocation and an egalitarian dispersal of resources. Those whose kindness was greatest were honored and respected leaders of their communities.
returning to your original statement: aren’t these examples of systems overcoming selfishness?
TheTrivium4TW post=2221 wrote:
I take it you don’t believe the literal story of Adam and Eve and Cain and Abel. 😉Parables.
As for greed being “rewarded” – only in the mind of the greedy. 😉
No, not just in the mind, physically as well. They get their material needs met better. They eat Filet Mignon whilst the poor starve.
Divide you day up into increments and determine how much of your day is done to benefit you and yours and how much is done to benefit others.
About all of it since during official working hours I’m teaching kids and all the rest of the time Im writing on the net in the effort to benefit others. Of course, I do get paid for the official work so that benefits me and I am entertained in reading and writing so tht benefits me also, so it goes both ways.
How is it caring to buy a luxury vehicle instead of a more practical vehicle and spend the rest of the money feeding the starving?
Do you think a starving 10 year old whose parents are both dead would view how Americans live and consider them to care about his welfare the same way we care about our own welfare?
You can make the case that owning any kind of car at all, even a practical one is uncaring. The main problem of course is the size of social structures and the lack of any real connection between the greedy luxury car driver and the starving 3rd world child. Prior to mass media neither would know how the other was living either. All sorts of issues wrapped up in this one.
TheTrivium4TW post=2217 wrote: Hi Ash, yes we do disagree on the selfish nature of people. Perhaps it is a definition issue. My definition of “selfish” is not caring for others equal to oneself.
If you think everyone cares for others equal to themselves, but the system somehow forces them to buy a Beemer for $50k instead of buying a Corolla for $10k and spending $40k feeding the starving, then we disagree. In fact, one of my main thesis is that Big Finance Capital are experts at using our selfish nature against us. The bubble only occurred because society was greedy. They couldn’t do it alone – and Nicole is right that the prey played right into the hands of the predator. She’s right – but I’m going to spend the majority of time warning the community about the r*pist.
No, I don’t think the system forces anyone to do anything (as in they have no other choice). For many, the system presents them with the option between a certain level of active participation or death. For others, it is between high standards of living and conformity or lower standards and outcast status. Of course, it’s not that simple of a dichotomy, but the point is that the system, just like TPTB who operate within it, is not all-powerful and cannot eliminate the concept of free will.
What it can do is greatly increase the chances that people will think and act in a certain way when confronted with various circumstances. I am not arguing that there is no individual selfishness involved, but rather that this human capability for selfish thought/behavior is brought to the forefront of our socioeconomic relations through the structures of the system.
Don’t think that these crooks didn’t know a bust was gonna come, though. They knew a bust was going to come in 1913 when they set this system up. They’ve been preparing for it ever since.
…
Just like I explained to the “Democracy Now” woman who tried to argue DN wasn’t controlled, “Controlled.”First, with regards to all the stuff you said that is not quoted, I do not really disagree. I also don’t disagree that the people who established the Federal Reserve knew how it could be used for their benefit through credit booms/busts within the logic of our system, and would ultimately result in the latest epic bust. Plenty of people knew that’s exactly how the capitalist industrial-financial system would work, dating back to 18th century. Don’t forget about the Long Depression (23 years) which began in 1870 and persisted during a period in which the US was on the gold standard and did not have a central bank. 1913 simply marks the year in which a select group of elites finally managed to get their way and create a completely unaccountable institution which would efficiently harness the inherent tendencies of the system for their benefit.
With regards to this issue of “control”, it all depends. If I remember correctly, you convinced a woman that DN was “controlled” by asking her why they never talk about the Fed system created in 1913 and debt-based money? Do you really see no other plausible explanations? Perhaps Amy Goodman is a paid shill that is being given orders from above, but that is pure speculation, and there are alternate explanations for her ignorance and/or unwillingness to delve into certain subjects. I know plenty of people who have no idea what I’m talking about when I say “debt-based money”, even after I explain the concept to them. There are many factors that go into that resistance to embrace the truth.
Well, I it is a true shame to lose El G from the conversations here, if only because there are too few of “us” to begin with. And by “us” I mean those who are willing and able to engage in these conversations at all. I mean, seriously, have you tried talking to your family and co-workers lately? They won’t even entertain square one let alone conspiracy one-hundred.
El G is an artist and out-of-the-box thinker. And those kinds of guys are hard to keep down on the farm at the best of times, so I guess I am not surprised he’s bolted.
I do agree with El G to the extent that there are a lot of concerted efforts to wrest more control from the common-person’s hands. We’re being robbed of civil liberties as quickly as our cash. But I have to say that grand conspiracies, orchestrated to the degree that El G believes in them, don’t really ring true to me. The complex system we live in swallows everything, including TPTSB. The laws of the universe trump every man’s design. The controls used by TPTSB become illusory at some point.
That isn’t to say we won’t be made to suffer greatly. I think El G makes an excellent point when he refers to the lack of personal control the slave had in the face of the massive system. But while the current system has the upper-hand, I have to acknowledge that human-led hegemonies need other humans, and that’s the problem right there. We’re too tricky and fickle and wily to keep such perfect control on course for very long. It starts to unravel. Secrets get out. Backs are stabbed.
I think of Mike Ovitz, the kingpin of Hollywood in the 90s. He transformed the movie industry, representing the biggest players, like Tom Cruise, brokering their deals, and spilling a lot of (metaphorical) blood in the process. He was DESPISED but seemed indominatable. Until he made a mistake. In the end, he was crushed and is essentially irrelevant now. Yes, “the system” is still there, mean as ever. But if there was a conspiracy in Hollywood at the time, Ovitz was driving it, no question about that. Things changed, though. Like they’re changing all the time. Because humans are tricky and fickle and wily. Which is why I like the ones who are honest and call a spade a spade and I know where I stand with ’em, like El G. Which is why I will miss him here. Even though I don’t buy the grand conspiracy.
skipbreakfast said “have you tried talking to your family and co-workers lately? They won’t even entertain square one let alone conspiracy one-hundred.”
You definitely got that right. People just can’t think that their lives could be anything different, this way of life is ‘normal’. If one talks about something that doesn’t fit their way of ‘normal’, then we are ‘losing it’.
It just seems that the longer everything appears ‘normal’, when this global financial Ponzi bubble bursts, it will be epic. So perhaps we should do whatever is considered ‘normal’ by others, enjoy life and have fun.
Because when it is all said and done, aren’t we going to survive by being creative and lucky. And nature bats last. All the preparations one can do, mean nothing if one is flattened by a tornado or hurricane or tsunami or earthquake or other nature event.
I too miss El G’s commentary, also that of snuffy, greenpa, nobody and others.
bluebird post=2233 wrote: skipbreakfast said “have you tried talking to your family and co-workers lately? They won’t even entertain square one let alone conspiracy one-hundred.”
You definitely got that right. People just can’t think that their lives could be anything different, this way of life is ‘normal’. If one talks about something that doesn’t fit their way of ‘normal’, then we are ‘losing it’.
It just seems that the longer everything appears ‘normal’, when this global financial Ponzi bubble bursts, it will be epic. So perhaps we should do whatever is considered ‘normal’ by others, enjoy life and have fun.
Because when it is all said and done, aren’t we going to survive by being creative and lucky. And nature bats last. All the preparations one can do, mean nothing if one is flattened by a tornado or hurricane or tsunami or earthquake or other nature event.
I too miss El G’s commentary, also that of snuffy, greenpa, nobody and others.
I can’t recall the podcast, but a British commentator made the following two points:
1. “Americans are scared of one thing and on thing only. Inconvenience.”
2. “The don’t even bother to lie to the British people. The good news is they have to lie to the American people. The bad news is that it is so *easy* to lie to the American people.
Veritas.
As for partying while “Rome” burns, I think it all comes down to values.
One chooses to either be part of the problem or part of the solution. I simply don’t want to be part of the problem. In other words, if everyone did what I did, the systemic fraud would end in short order.
My efforts are sufficient – everyone else can chose to be part of the problem and most do right now. When they are fully looted, that will likely change.
I was giving the “run down” to a front desk clerk at a local health club – I was trying to put up GMO labelling initiative flyers up at the front desk. Anyway, she was kind of overwhelmed, but she kind of nervously laughed when I said the system was engineered to make debt slaves out of us. I asked if she was following Greece and, if not, to begin to do so.
I clearly hit a line she didn’t want to cross… but we are being pushed over the line whether we like it or not. By design.
Anyway, I’m fighting back.
You are likely right that it will be luck that gets most people through this, but “luck” is some part preparation.
If I was completely ignorant of the toxins being put in my food, in my water, of a fraudulent monetary system engineered to bankrupt me, of a corrupt media that legally lies every day, I would appreciate the “heads” up from someone who did know this information.
It’s all about making an attempt to care for others as we’d have them care for ourselves.
And no – I’m not high up on the popularity list of most friends and family… But I’m not trying to popular… I’m trying to help people understand and prepare for the global financial flood that is about to swamp nearly everyone.
Truth be told, everyone needs to stand for something or they will fall for anything. When a few people stand up, it is trivial to beat them back down.
When everyone stands up, what’s the use of beating down one or two?
“The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.”
Albert Einsteinskipbreakfast post=2232 wrote: El G is an artist and out-of-the-box thinker. And those kinds of guys are hard to keep down on the farm at the best of times, so I guess I am not surprised he’s bolted.
I completely agree.
IMHO, El G should not leave any reservation, he should simply not tie himself down to a reservation at all. He’s a free actor and I hope he realizes that he’s only robbing the readership of his talents and insights.
We are all in this together and I feel cheated that El G bailed here as his comments were something lots of us valued for their insight and entertainment value.
It is true that some people here have one foot in the Matrix, but that’s gonna happen. We have to have tough skins to bring a message that is so scary that most people viscerally abhor it.
El G, you are in a great position to educate people and inspire people.
I’m not saying you should exclusively post here at TAE – you insight and “art” is valuable everywhere.
My sole goal is to get as many people as possible to begin questioning the system after learning some history, learning what really goes on today (the news consists of legal lies) and then, with that base in place – question EVERYTHING.
The more people I talk to, the more I learn.
El G, we are in a brawl for the minds of our fellow Americans.
The mental tyranny is strong…
“I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every from of tyranny over the mind of man.”
~Thomas JeffersonYou aren’t the only one getting beat up fighting the tyrants, although, you might get more heat because you get more exposure.
This is the end game and we need everyone of conscience “swinging” with all they have to resist this tyranny or else the end will 100% be ugly and we will have contributed.
Get you ideas out so they can kick the fraudulent lies of the establishment and people have a better opportunity to wake up.
They are waking up… more every day.
We need your help.
Damon Vrable got frustrated and quit. We miss him dearly. We all have to stand and fight in peace because, if we don’t give it a shot, misguided violence will eventually ensue.
@TheTrivium4TW – Yes I am fighting back too, in my own way by learning and preparing. Unfortunately, people have other priorities, and until something affects them personally, they do not open their eyes.
Spouse and I are fighting some legal issues in our community where we have been targeted by the evil police chief for 3 years. We have a few people who are supporting us. But a couple weeks ago, our next door neighbor 10 year old child was targeted by this same evil chief. Now, many more people are waking up because this also affects the schools.
So if our village officials had reprimanded/terminated this evil chief three years ago, then the community would not be in the mess it is today with all the chief’s continued unacceptable dishonest behavior. If his inappropriate actions had been dealt with earlier, a young child would have not been traumatized by this evil chief.
We even voted a new mayor in January, and still nothing has been done about the chief in this small community of 2500 people. So yes we are standing up to to do something and make people aware, but most people do not pay attention. Besides, they trust the system. Even at this small level, they do not understand their system has been corrupted.
ashvin post=2228 wrote:
With regards to this issue of “control”, it all depends. If I remember correctly, you convinced a woman that DN was “controlled” by asking her why they never talk about the Fed system created in 1913 and debt-based money? Do you really see no other plausible explanations? Perhaps Amy Goodman is a paid shill that is being given orders from above, but that is pure speculation, and there are alternate explanations for her ignorance and/or unwillingness to delve into certain subjects. I know plenty of people who have no idea what I’m talking about when I say “debt-based money”, even after I explain the concept to them. There are many factors that go into that resistance to embrace the truth.Hi Ash,
What is up with the disappearing threads? The GMO thread disappears, El G’s Reservation thread disappears – this is very odd.
Once problem mmost people run into is that they tend to not believe a con job exists unless and until the establishment tells them the con job exists.
When the establishment *is* the con job, they won’t tell you Ash, you have to figure it out on your own.
I know Amy Goodman is controlled because the Foundations that support PBS would never pay someone to rat out their criminal societal asset operations.
This is Econ 101.
But let’s go through some data.
1. Dylan Ratigan called the bankers criminals and said they needed to be jailed. He was off the lead of Fast Money within a week. Sure, he’s on MSNBC now, but he’s no longer prime time and I’m sure he’s been “talked to.”
2. Cenk is what I’d refer to as a “thinking liberal” that doesn’t just buy the establishment party line… Listen to the inside methods used to control him…
Why Cenk Uygur Left MSNBC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrKKkGl3TnY&feature=relmfu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEYkBA5ze6c
3. When Judge Nap got too close to the bone of the beast, he was fired immediately…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOaCemmsnNk
4. Monsanto corporate control of Media
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZkDikRLQrw
Clearly, the economics dictate that privately financed media is controlled.
Clearly, the fruits of the controlled media are there – get out of line and get fired. Every news anchor sees this and acts accordingly.
Now, don’t trust me. Don’t even trust the evidence presented here.
In fact, do your own experiment. Contact Amy Goodman and explain how the Federal Reserve system has criminally broken Section 2A of the Federal Reserve Act for 25 years running and they lie, along with the media, about their singular mandate to “maintain long run growth of the monetary and credit aggregates commensurate with the economy’s long run potential to increase production”
https://www.federalreserve.gov/aboutthefed/section2a.htm
Note the lie in the first paragraph…
https://www.chicagofed.org/webpages/publications/speeches/our_dual_mandate.cfm
What did the Fed do? They broke their singular mandate for 25 years and blew the world’s largest credit bubble in human history AND THAT IS THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE COLLAPSE IN 2008 AND THE COMING GREATEST DEPRESSION IN HUMAN HISTORY.
https://www.keepandshare.com/doc/3324744/wmdebt-graph-3-79k
All this is trivial to prove beyond all doubt and would be the world’s biggest, most relevant news story… BUT AMY WON’T TOUCH IT.
She can’t and stay employed.
In addition, Amy Goodman was on site when Building 7’s count down to implosion commenced and the building was “pulled.”
WTC 7 Collapse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT3ea4AC2K8
WTC 7 is about to “blow up”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU_43SwWD9A
Amy Goodman doesn’t talk about this on air.
We Are Change has Amy Goodman on the run
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=099BssyN_D4
Kevin Barrett Questions Amy Goodman On Building 7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2yC4xgeVMM
Amy Goodman questioned about 911
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXTlxT7gFGk
Kevin Barrett Questions Amy Goodman On Building 7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2yC4xgeVMM
Smoking Gun Evidence WTC7 Was A Controlled Demolition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgAJ4sKUp8g
The media is “controlled” Ash. The mechanism to do so is hidden right in plain site.
Debt Dollar Tyranny systematically asset strips humanity for the benefit of a small inner party. That inner party then uses the “free market” over lay in order to buy up control of anything and everything they deem as a strategic interest in order to further their agenda.
They aren’t going to pay people to rat out their humanity impoverishing and destroying criminal agenda, now are they?
Nor are they going to tell you or I or anyone else what they are doing.
We have to gather data, apply logic and then explain data and logic to get the truth out there…
That, my friend, is the Trivium method at work… and that is why they don’t teach this method to the proles.
Instead, they bury the proles in emotionally charged logical fallacy so that people are convinced of something without doing any research at all in many cases.
ben post=2225 wrote:
hey Triv,what i took from the article was that people in gift economies gave in order to receive status. that giving of both assistance and material things elevated one’s social status above others’. the system was set up to deliberately neutralize the human tendency to implicitly care about oneself more than another. while i imagine that a public sense of superiority was looked down upon, it stands to reason that giving a lot and being respected more than less-giving people satisfied peoples’ internal desire for the power that comes with an elevated social status. perhaps egotistical, emotionally selfish members found that by giving more than their fair share of material goods they could achieve more interpersonal success than they otherwise would.
returning to your original statement: aren’t these examples of systems overcoming selfishness?
I think so. The communities that understand human nature and go about trying to mitigate it do the best.
Do keep in mind, though, that the context in which people live are important, too.
Back in the day, when you killed a deer, the meat wasn’t going to last long, so had better share it and hope someone else is able to give some of their deer at some point in the future. The constraints of the day made sharing in one’s self interest.
I think that is what the the founders of the American Republic tried to do – they understood human nature and didn’t so much as try to create a perfect government, but tried to create the least evil government.
We rejected their vision and now we are about to stand to account.
Again, not that their vision was so grand, but that every other vision was quite a bit worse.
Except for, perhaps, what TAE promotes… local communities volunteering to work together (note – no gun pointed to their heads to force them!) for the betterment of their community.
That’s probably the most sustainable model, but the selfish control freaks don’t like it and will point that gun to make sure it doesn’t flourish.
That’s why people who sell real food are being thrown into jail in spite of never hurting anyone (in fact, helping them!) while Big Finance Capital controlled Pharma can kill 106,000 people per year and nobody makes a fuss or makes it a news story.
That’s a 911 death toll every 11 days…
But don’t worry… Death at the hands of a Big Finance Capital corporate front is a great honor – kind of like having the Aztecs sacrifice you back in the day.
TheTrivium4TW post=2235 wrote: IMHO, El G should not leave any reservation, he should simply not tie himself down to a reservation at all. He’s a free actor and I hope he realizes that he’s only robbing the readership of his talents and insights.
El G is not robbing the readership of his talents and insights. He simply moved his writing platform from one Blog to another one. He explained his reasons for doing that, and all the readers here are free to read El G’s writings in the Diner now.
We are not “in competition” with TAE on DD so much as we are Allies in the same battle. We are all trying to get the meesage out in our own ways, as you are doing at the local level putting out GMO information flyers.
In the end, you are limited in how many Blogs you can write on, how many comment threads you can respond to anywhere. I keyboard faster than most people, but I can’t handle participating on more than 3 or 4 boards at any one time, and even that is a stretch. As DD gets more commentary and site traffic, I am limited even more.
Ashvin has written to me that he may Join with us at DD as well, and we may do some Cross Posting of articles as well. All to the good there, its a Fusion of ideas rather than a Fission of them. El G wrote on TAE for a long time as his Bully Pulpit, all he has done here is move to another location, he hasn’t stopped writing yet as Damon Vrabel seems to have done.
We are all in this thing together, although we all do have our different spins on the Collapse and different ways of communicating our ideas over the internet. As I have mentioned, I have a very long history of being Banned from Message Boards because of my ideas and my volatile nature in arguments. I HAD to set up a space I could write on and not be Banned anymore. My intention is to make that space a good one for all who consider collapse issues to write on as well, and communicate further what is going down in our society. I will continue to read here on TAE and to write here occassionally also, but frankly as DD gets more activity I just do not have the time in the day to do much of that anymore.
So for TAE readers and commenters, I say to you that if you have the time, read both blogs and follow commentary streams in both forums. there is much to be learned, much to be discussed, and the more the merrier in both places.
Hi RE,
Fair enough. Be sure to let us know when he posts another article.
I’d still like to see his art applied to this concept as I think it is critical to nail down the very nature of the control mechanism being used to wage economic warfare on the populace…
There was a moment in 2009 when I had similar feelings that TAE’s view couldn’t sufficiently integrate conspiratorial big picture elements, but I’ve reconciled those discrepancies. TAE and financially centered blogs have valuable system analysis of socioeconomic phenomenon which haven’t been consciously orchestated by anyone, or may perturb existent agenda’s.
I was still reading the Oildrum back in 2008 during the price spike, and most of the blog there was convinced that the price level was a direct function of scarcity and could never go down again. Then it dropped by two-thirds when the speculative bubble burst, and I started paying more attention to Stoneleighs financial blog, who had just departed the Oildrum for having an alternative view on the oil market.
I found TAE’s analysis of the interaction between the oil market and the financial economy to be more accurate, so I stuck with it.Many people who frequent outlets of conspiratorial narratives oversimplify matters and tend to incorporate all kinds of events into a singular criminal superstructure, which is inpractical for much economic analysis. I must admit that most of Alex Jones’ material on infowars and prisonplanet is verifiably true whenever I check up on those stories, although sometimes extrapolated with subsets of unverified facts.
However, AJ’s economic coverage is limited to a view of controlled collapse by crony capitalism and the malicious monopoly on money, and misses much of the automatic socioeconomic mechanisms which don’t require conscious design or active agendas. His economic guests on the radio show have useful insights sometimes, but I’ve never seen a pronounced deflationist there, all have fast hyperinflationary-dollar-death-by-design expectations.
For relevant market analysis I’ll go with the economic and financial blogs, which are more comprehensive and focused on that topic than conspiracy-based outlets.El Gs departure is awkward, Ill miss his writing here, but I’ll occasionally visit that conspiracy-oriented blog to read his contributions there.
I was suprised he took offense over Ash’s trashing the constitution, but if one assumes a plot to overthrow the republic and sees this as more relevant than economic collapse itself, the value of the constitution and the rule of law might be a sensitive subject, and the relevancy of this blog would be in question if it would ignore such concerns or dismiss the veracity of conspiracy. I would think a conspiracy thread to appease the demand for economotive conspiracism would suffice.Supergravity post=2277 wrote: El Gs departure is awkward, Ill miss his writing here, but I’ll occasionally visit that conspiracy-oriented blog to read his contributions there.
Hello. DD is an Out of the Box Thinking Oriented Blog. Conspiracy is only one of many dishes served up in the Diner. I write on Economics, Population, Geopolitics and Education issues all the time, and I write most of the articles on the Diner at the moment.
Clearly, the economics dictate that privately financed media is controlled.
Clearly, the fruits of the controlled media are there – get out of line and get fired. Every news anchor sees this and acts accordingly.
Triv,
You are really making my argument for me in your last post. It has been my assertion that a significant portion of the coerced thoughts/behavior we have seen over the years can be attributed to the system, and it is a system that dates back farther than anything that can be called “debt-dollar tyranny”. It is the difference between saying “Amy Goodman is someone who is 100% intentionally misdirecting her viewers because she is a member of a coordinated conspiracy” and saying “there is a decent chance that Amy Goodman is unable/unwilling to embrace/express the truth, even though she believes otherwise”. Sometimes the distinction is irrelevant and sometimes it is very important – but, regardless, there is a big distinction.
ashvin post=2301 wrote: It has been my assertion that a significant portion of the coerced thoughts/behavior we have seen over the years can be attributed to the system, and it is a system that dates back farther than anything that can be called “debt-dollar tyranny”.
We agree on that one Ash! Welcome to the community of Conspiracy Theorists! In the words of Winston Churchill, “We have determined what you are Madam, now we are only quibbling about the Price.” LOL.
How FAR back in time does this sytem go? To 1692 when Sir Isaac Newton was Master of the Mint in Jolly Old England and the Bank of England was Chartered? Or can we trace it further back to the House of Medici and the Florentine Banksters? Or does it go back still further into the years when the Holy Roman Catholic Church ran the last vestiges of the Wealth once held by the Roman Empire in Europe? Or still further back in time to when Egypt was held to ransom by the Roman Banksters? Where did THEY get control over the system and the Wealth that once was in the Great City of Babylon?
The “system” here has been running for a long time indeed, and there is a continuity of method you can see through the millenia. You can also see pretty obviously how the system gets perpetuated through organizations such as the BIS and then before that by such trading companies as the East India Companies. There are layers and layers of Holding Companies and a body of law in the stacks of Old Bailey going back for centuries which codify who “owns” what on the Earth. The Web is tangled and obscure, but it is quite clear that a relatively small number of people are in control here, and they do conspire to maintain that control.
You can specualte all you like on exactly WHO is a direct Pawn of the Illuminati and who is simply operating within parameters the syste defines, but it is not an important distinction IMHO. Its the SYSTEM that must be abolished first and foremost, and that goes a lot further than just getting rid of “debt-dollar” tyranny. That is only the latest incarnation of a system which is very ancient indeed, and IMHO extends all the way back to the Collapse of the Tower of Babel, and likely a ways before that as well.
The main difference I think between you and I is you don’t seem willing to go back in Mr. Peabody’s WAYBAC machine much further than 1913 and the founding of Da Fed and the current incarnation here of what appears to me to be a multi-millenia Conspiracy, perpetuated by SYSTEMS which trancend the lifespan of any individual Homo Sapiens. The very SAME people who began it obviously no longer run it, but it is designed in such a way as to make sure that their Heirs do, both of the Genetic Kind and the Spiritual Kind. The SYTEM itself is the EVIL. The system is MONEY, and it is the ROOT of all Evil.
Reverse Engineer post=2304 wrote: We agree on that one Ash! Welcome to the community of Conspiracy Theorists! In the words of Winston Churchill, “We have determined what you are Madam, now we are only quibbling about the Price.” LOL.
…
The main difference I think between you and I is you don’t seem willing to go back in Mr. Peabody’s WAYBAC machine much further than 1913 and the founding of Da Fed and the current incarnation here of what appears to me to be a multi-millenia Conspiracy, perpetuated by SYSTEMS which trancend the lifespan of any individual Homo Sapiens. The very SAME people who began it obviously no longer run it, but it is designed in such a way as to make sure that their Heirs do, both of the Genetic Kind and the Spiritual Kind. The SYTEM itself is the EVIL. The system is MONEY, and it is the ROOT of all Evil.
Well, we kind of agree. When I say the “system”, I mean all of the non-living structures that have evolved + the human elements. So I agree that coordinated conspiracy has had a large influence for long periods of time, but I don’t agree that it has been the sole driver of major historical developments or that the conspirators have always maintained absolute control over the system as a whole. I’m willing to go back to any time in the past in my mind (and I do), but I’m less willing (not unwilling) to speculate on how conspiracies operated in the distant past in public, because I haven’t come across any sets of evidence that would make me very confident in such speculation. I guess that’s the main difference between us – I’m not a speculator by nature, and I feel the act of speculation sometimes does more harm than good, as it adds to the abundance of confusion out there and may lead people down the wrong path.
Repost from the Diner
[quote author=RE link=topic=166.msg1236#msg1236 date=1334952763]
[quote author=Ashvin link=topic=166.msg1216#msg1216 date=1334935314]Well, we kind of agree. When I say the “system”, I mean all of the non-living structures that have evolved + the human elements. So I agree that coordinated conspiracy has had a large influence for long periods of time, but I don’t agree that it has been the sole driver of major historical developments or that the conspirators have always maintained absolute control over the system as a whole. I’m willing to go back to any time in the past in my mind (and I do), but I’m less willing (not unwilling) to speculate on how conspiracies operated in the distant past in public, because I haven’t come across any sets of evidence that would make me very confident in such speculation. I guess that’s the main difference between us – I’m not a speculator by nature, and I feel the act of speculation sometimes does more harm than good, as it adds to the abundance of confusion out there and may lead people down the wrong path.
I never made the claim that its the “sole driver” of major historical developments, for instance I don’t think the Illuminati caused Toba to erupt 75,000 years ago. There’s plenty of randomness in the system, but the primary historical narrative shows clear direction. Besides that, at least or the last 400 years since the BoE was founded the power centers in the City of London and Zurich have been abundantly clear. Besides that, the familial lines have held up quite well overall also, the House of Windsor for instance isn’t doing too bad and neither are the heirs of Mayer Rothschild or John D. Rockefeller. So why is it much of a leap to speculate that such maintenance of control doesn’t span millenia beyond centuries?
As to the value of speculation, when Feynman was developing Quantum Electrodynamics he was speculating, and using cute little diagrams to do it also. Bohr was speculating when he diagrammed out the inside of an Atom which he never could see. Bohr’s speculation isn’t the model we hold of the Atom now, but it was a useful tool for further speculation. History isn’t that much different from Physics where all there is to know cannot necessarily be seen directly, but only from the effects produced. As I see it, there is plenty of evidence in the historial narrative to suggest a very long running conspiracy.
RE
RE wrote: I never made the claim that its the “sole driver” of major historical developments, for instance I don’t think the Illuminati caused Toba to erupt 75,000 years ago. There’s plenty of randomness in the system, but the primary historical narrative shows clear direction. Besides that, at least or the last 400 years since the BoE was founded the power centers in the City of London and Zurich have been abundantly clear. Besides that, the familial lines have held up quite well overall also, the House of Windsor for instance isn’t doing too bad and neither are the heirs of Mayer Rothschild or John D. Rockefeller. So why is it much of a leap to speculate that such maintenance of control doesn’t span millenia beyond centuries?
OK, I understand that. But what do you think about episodes such as the 19th century socialist revolutions in Europe, or the 20th century momentum of labor movements in the West, or other similar things? Would you say that all of these significant events in human socioeconomic relations were orchestrated by the multi-generational elites, all part of their master plan for eventual global dominance? That’s what I mean by a lack of “absolute control” over the system as a whole. The system is not solely defined by the generalized paradigm of wealth/power concentration among an elite, coordinated group of people and their descendants, but rather is comprised of many different realities simultaneously existing and evolving for millions and now billions of people, some of which are rather detached from that general paradigm.
ashvin post=2163 wrote: If the history of active resistance movements in the 20th century have taught us anything, it is that they will not be remotely successful unless they find ways to remain clandestine (obviously) and to prevent others who are not actively resisting from informing on them. The only way to achieve the latter is to make sure that any potential informers fear you more than they fear TPTSB. You must let it be known that anyone who informs on the resistance or aids the rulers in any way will be punished by death, and then you will have to make good on that threat many times before it sinks in.
Being a newbie here I may cover some ground that has already been covered. Forgive me if that is the case.
There is a third alternative to flight/hide or fight that rarely gets mentioned which I find most attractive. It may now be too late to implement it for the current situation but it is worth considering.
Fight or flight supposes direct confrontation is the only way to resolve the dispute with our current leaders (TPTB) if we don’t desire the future they are attempting to implement.
The third option is to provide an attractive alternative to the TPTB’s planned future that attracts enough people to participate that it breaks TPTB’s powerbase. Historically it only takes 5 to 10% of the population to accomplish this.
TPTB probably won’t just go away quietly so confrontation is likely inevitable at some point but if it occurs after a viable alternative is defined, even if it is still in its infancy, the advantage is with the insurgency. With no viable alternative in view the masses of the population will automatically back the status quo because they fear the unknown. If there is an attractive alternative to choose from greater participation in change will occur.
Say what you will about TPTB, they did get us to this point which on many levels is better than living in caves. My opinion is TPTB are stuck in the past and need to be superceeded but hopefully not by physically defeating them by force. Making their past and present behavior irrelevant would suffice.
Rather than concentrating on personal survival we should be considering ways that all humans could interact more constructively than under the status quo. If everyone has a viable place within the new society then conflict will be greatly lessened.
In my opinion defining and attempting to create a new type of society should be our highest priority.
Making a list of the undesireable traits of our current society and another of the traits desired in a new society is a likely starting point. Getting a large participation in building those lists and attempting to find compromises that everyone can accept will give us a description of what is possible.
Kirkpatrick Sale wrote a book, “Human Scale”, that suggests that an alternative to a large hierachical, top down driven, heavily industrialized society, could provide the vast majority of the benefits of our current society within a much healthier, and less resource consuming civilization. I’m not suggesting this as the most attractive option but it does clearly demonstrate that alternatives are possible.
Exploring such options, implementing them to see if they work, and then presenting them to others as a possible alternative could change the future.
ashvin post=2313 wrote: [quote=RE]OK, I understand that. But what do you think about episodes such as the 19th century socialist revolutions in Europe, or the 20th century momentum of labor movements in the West, or other similar things? Would you say that all of these significant events in human socioeconomic relations were orchestrated by the multi-generational elites, all part of their master plan for eventual global dominance? That’s what I mean by a lack of “absolute control” over the system as a whole. The system is not solely defined by the generalized paradigm of wealth/power concentration among an elite, coordinated group of people and their descendants, but rather is comprised of many different realities simultaneously existing and evolving for millions and now billions of people, some of which are rather detached from that general paradigm.
Hi Ash, take a systems perspective. These Big Finance Capital criminals set up systems that enable to exert tremendous influence and control over entire societies.
Note the accusations made by Luke Rudkowski
911 Criminal Jay Rockefeller exposed by We Are Change NY & LA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hjrc91pFH4The relevant portion starts at 2:25.
Note Jay Rockefeller’s response…
The concept isn’t that this small group of criminals has mind control powers over everyone and they micro control people.
Rather, it is that they set up systems, like Debt Dollar Tyranny with an economic veneer, which enable them to manipulate the cost / benefit of individual actors within society to work towards their agenda.
Let me make this real simple. If someone is paying $1,000,000 to get GMO pesticide facsimile “food” approved with no long term health studies and someone is paying $8.00 hour at the local diner, how many people would choose the $1,000,000 option?
They only need one.
And they got their one. Michael Taylor, a former Monsanto attorney, was put over the FDA, gave Big Finance Capital everything they wanted and then went on to become a Monsanto VP.
The revolving door is all about conspiracy to control government – and it doesn’t take that many people and it is all about finding the price at which people stop caring about their actions. Or, frankly, some people like to hurt other people they think are lesser than themselves.
Debt Dollar Tyranny, along with its fake free market veneer, allows the wealthy, politically connected architects of these fraudulent systems to use their wealth to pressure society to go along with their agenda.
It isn’t that they have total control, though. If they did, we’d already be calling them lord and master.
It is an epic battle between the criminals a the top and the informed populace that actively resists this “scientific dictatorship” level of tyranny and the apathetic, programmed masses who have no idea they are the next course for the predators sitting at the table.
I get that it is scary. I get that it sounds crazy. But that doesn’t mean that it isn’t real.
It is very real.
And their current method of control is to consolidate as much power as possible in their Presidential puppet… They control him by vetting and financing all candidates and the CIA, NSA is there to monitor their puppet and make sure he stays in line.
The Zapruder film works wonders as well.
You also have to look at who financed what. It is rare that an overwhelmingly financed movement isn’t the dominant movement of an era.
Who can out finance everyone else? Jackson called them the “Den of Vipers.” Lincoln called them the “money power.”
They exist, they are real and their solution to poverty is to literally kill off the poor people – it is call eugenics.
Now the criminals are promoting infantacide through their “medical ethicists.”
Killing babies no different from abortion, experts say
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9113394/Killing-babies-no-different-from-abortion-experts-say.htmlNote the timing of this Nazi style horror show…
Now Desperate Greek Parents Are Giving Up Their Children
https://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-01-10/europe/30610850_1_greek-families-economic-crisis-guardianLooks to me like the eugenicists running these governments want some blood from children.
Remember, we have to kill off granny, too – or you might be out of a job and homeless…
Bill Gates Talks about Death Panels
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F_WEdJuNLwThey know full well that nutrition and hormonal balanced eating is key to health, but health doesn’t kill people off an over populated planet and doesn’t maximize profits for Big Finance Capital’s pharma division… so the system uses their wealth and influence to subsidize high glycemic, high inflammation producing GMO “foods” (corn and Omega 6 vegetable oil) and to literally wage war against nutrition by throwing raw milk producers into jail and declaring them to be terrorists and labeling vitamins and minerals as toxins.
https://www.naturalnews.com/024128_CODEX_food_health.html
All the while Pharma kills off 106,000 people a year with FDS approved drugs and it isn’t even covered in the media and nobody makes a stink about it.
That’s a 9/11 death toll ever 11 DAYS!
It’s all about ECONOMIC INCENTIVES.
The ECONOMIC INCENTIVES are set up to jail and accuse a raw milk producer of being a terrorist and the ECONOMIC INCENTIVES are set up to allow Big Finance Capital’s Pharma division TO WAGE WAR on America and kill off 106,000 people year without a peep from the media.
Who CONTROLS the nation’s ECONOMIC INCENTIVES?
That’s easy – The DEBT DOLLAR TYRANTS!
They rule via…
1. Criminal application of mathematics to the monetary system
2. A free market system that is anything but free when the crooks rigged the monetary system
3. Psychological, sociological, pharmacological, psy op, etc… scientific expertise used to wage a covert war on the American people and the people of the world.Hitler was head of the National SOCIALIST German Workers Party. Hitler was LIBERATING Germans from their neighboring TERRORIST captors. Hitler was controlling TERRORIST Jews who had infiltrated the country. If you didn’t like Hitler, you were SHOUTED DOWN AS UNPATRIOTIC.
All lies, of course, but the GALACTIC CHUMPS that comprise the citizenry suck it in over and over and over AND LEARN ALMOST NOTHING as time progresses.
But people are awakening to the scam, to the con. That’s why the banksters have consolidated assassination power in their Executive Puppet. No jury, no evidence, just death… like those poor infants and grannies they want to kill off deader than a hammer.
It’s all hidden in plain view.
I get it is scary.
“Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the numbers of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth, to know the worst, and to provide for it.”
…
“It is in vain, sir, to extentuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace–but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!”https://www.law.ou.edu/ushistory/henry.shtml
The war is an information war and many of us are out fighting tooth and nail to keep the globalists from continuing covertly modify the “food” supply to sterilize mammals and increase cellular inflammation (that’s what the animal studies say, folks – be grown up about this!).
Unfortunately, even smart guys like you can’t “get it.” or at least haven’t gotten it yet.
Read it… it’s all there…
https://responsibletechnology.org/health-risks
Children cancers are skyrocketing, breast cancer rates have tripled in 30 years, Alzheimer’s is skyrocketing, autism 1 in 58 from 1 in 20,000+…
…and nobody questions why these rates are skyrocketing, they just ask for Big Pharma “cures.”
Slow kill, people, slow kill. It reduces population (check), it asset strips citizens (check) and it is slow enough that the average non thinker and anti-conspiracy types will never figure out it is occurring.
Its the perfect plan… the first two are part of the STATED globalist agenda and the latter is simply a rational application of Economics 101 for psychopaths.
Peter O post=2315 wrote: [quote=ashvin post=2163]
Being a newbie here I may cover some ground that has already been covered. Forgive me if that is the case.There is a third alternative to flight/hide or fight that rarely gets mentioned which I find most attractive. It may now be too late to implement it for the current situation but it is worth considering.
Fight or flight supposes direct confrontation is the only way to resolve the dispute with our current leaders (TPTB) if we don’t desire the future they are attempting to implement.
The third option is to provide an attractive alternative to the TPTB’s planned future that attracts enough people to participate that it breaks TPTB’s powerbase. Historically it only takes 5 to 10% of the population to accomplish this.
Peter, this third option you mention is a very tricky one. It sounds good in theory, but in practice it may take us in the opposite direction of where we want to go. We can be sure that the NWO elites would like nothing more than to co-opt resistance movements (i.e. the “truthers”) and get from here to Hell without too much bloody confrontation. The best way for them to do that is to make the current resistance believe that they have defeated the NWO agenda, and that this “attractive alternative” society will be something completely different. In reality, though, it will end up being exactly what the elites need to justify a one world government, maintain advanced control of the masses, and perhaps even to systematically depopulate the globe. Some people would call this “the new, new world order”.
ashvin post=2301 wrote:
Clearly, the economics dictate that privately financed media is controlled.
Clearly, the fruits of the controlled media are there – get out of line and get fired. Every news anchor sees this and acts accordingly.
Triv,
You are really making my argument for me in your last post. It has been my assertion that a significant portion of the coerced thoughts/behavior we have seen over the years can be attributed to the system, and it is a system that dates back farther than anything that can be called “debt-dollar tyranny”. It is the difference between saying “Amy Goodman is someone who is 100% intentionally misdirecting her viewers because she is a member of a coordinated conspiracy” and saying “there is a decent chance that Amy Goodman is unable/unwilling to embrace/express the truth, even though she believes otherwise”. Sometimes the distinction is irrelevant and sometimes it is very important – but, regardless, there is a big distinction.
Hi Ash,
The next step is to understand that “systems” have “architects.”
WHO designed the systems of control? WHO perpetuates them and keeps them SECRET from the populace?
It’s like corporations. They are painted as evil. The problem is that “corporations” don’t do the evil, PEOPLE DO.
WHO created the corporate “profit making psychopath” model? I didn’t. You didn’t. Nobody I know did. BUT SOME GROUP OF PEOPLE DID.
Covertly Conspiring to create a system used to control people for one’s benefit is a conspiracy by definition.
“In the technotronic society the trend would seem to be towards the aggregation of the individual support of millions of uncoordinated citizens, easily within the reach of magnetic and attractive personalities exploiting the latest communications techniques to manipulate emotions and control reason.”
― Zbigniew Brzezinski, Between Two Ages: America’s Role in the Technetronic EraThey tell you about the conspiracy to promote magnetic personalities (politics, media) to “manipulate” and “control.”
They think we are so out of touch, they come right out and publicly express their agenda to manipulate and control us and the method used.
While I’m not an insider, so I can’t have actual knowledge of the mechanism of control used, I can make reasonable conclusions based on reasonable reverse engineering.
1. She is given free range until a topic is determine tabo. Her boss makes that call. Have you heard about the CIA infiltrating the media? Amy is an employee, her employer is funded by Big Fianance Capital cash, so the employer will ensure that the employee doesn’t offend Big Finance Capital.
2. She knows what would offend Big Finance Capital and won’t touch it as she reationalizes withholding the information in order to collect her paycheck and the SWAG associated with the media “good life.”The point is that the media is all a “for profit” show and they don’t hire people to upend their criminal agendas.
Revealed – the corporate network that runs the world
One thing won’t chime with some of the protesters’ claims: the super-entity is unlikely to be the intentional result of a conspiracy to rule the world. “Such structures are common in nature,” says Sugihara.
No grammar (data) or logic presented… just a wishy washy claim.
Who lends these mega corporations their cash?
Are their executives part of Bilderberg or CFR or Bohemian Grove?
Are they part of the “Big Club” that the rest of us aren’t in?
It is really simple – if Ash started sucking out 10% of the economy every year in place of the Debt Dollar Tyrants, Ash’s agenda would become the most important agenda in the nation.
“Whomsoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce and when you realize that the entire system is very easily controlled, one way or another, by a few powerful men at the top, you will not have to be told how periods of inflation and depression originate.”
― James Garfield“I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.” -Woodrow Wilson, after signing the Federal Reserve into existence
“The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the people versus the banks.”
Lord Actonashvin post=2309 wrote: but I don’t agree that it has been the sole driver of major historical developments or that the conspirators have always maintained absolute control over the system as a whole.
Hi Ash,
I view that as a straw man argument.
Nobody I have ever heard has argued that point.
Perhaps some bankster / government funded operative has expressed those views to discredit real people trying to get to the real truth, but I haven’t heard of them.
PS – You should watch Teh Secret of Oz. It details the all out brawl for control of America’s monetary system between politicians who represent the people and the international financial cartel.
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