El Gallinazo Surfaces: Off the Reservation
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Triv,
We are talking about completely different things now. You have a tendency to take my comments about very specific issues and shift them back to the general discussion that you want to have about debt dollar tyranny. I appreciate all of the links/info you post here, and I think it is helpful for others, but trust me when I say that none of it is new to me at all. I have watched all of Bill Still’s videos before, and I understand the various ways/examples how the debt-dollar system works and TPTB use it to control the media, academic institutions, government, etc.
RE and I were having a different discussion about the more finer points of conspiratorial narratives and meta-narratives, with the latter being ones which try to incorporate every major historical development in human civilization into a unified conspiratorial framework. They are basically trying to find the Theory of Everything when it comes to the evolution of human society. So I am not making a straw man argument in that discussion. Plenty of people out there argue those points all the time, and many of them are very influential in the “truther” movement.
ashvin post=2324 wrote: [quote=Peter O post=2315][quote=ashvin post=2163]
Being a newbie here I may cover some ground that has already been covered. Forgive me if that is the case.There is a third alternative to flight/hide or fight that rarely gets mentioned which I find most attractive. It may now be too late to implement it for the current situation but it is worth considering.
Fight or flight supposes direct confrontation is the only way to resolve the dispute with our current leaders (TPTB) if we don’t desire the future they are attempting to implement.
The third option is to provide an attractive alternative to the TPTB’s planned future that attracts enough people to participate that it breaks TPTB’s powerbase. Historically it only takes 5 to 10% of the population to accomplish this.
Peter, this third option you mention is a very tricky one. It sounds good in theory, but in practice it may take us in the opposite direction of where we want to go. We can be sure that the NWO elites would like nothing more than to co-opt resistance movements (i.e. the “truthers”) and get from here to Hell without too much bloody confrontation. The best way for them to do that is to make the current resistance believe that they have defeated the NWO agenda, and that this “attractive alternative” society will be something completely different. In reality, though, it will end up being exactly what the elites need to justify a one world government, maintain advanced control of the masses, and perhaps even to systematically depopulate the globe. Some people would call this “the new, new world order”.
I take it you support a bloody revolution?Isn’t bloody resistance exactly what the elite need to justify taking us to hell?
Is defining and implementing a new paradigm co-opting the truther movement if it proves to be effective? If it creates a more effective resistance isn’t it taking the truther movement into a stronger position?
Nothing is without risk.
How risky is initiating a bloody confrontation? Especially with no plan for if you actually manage to pull it off and win? Without a plan isn’t the result anarchy?
How risky is it to just checkout and look after your own needs while leaving it up to others to deal with the problem of the NWO?
How risky is it to just accept the fate the NWO has planned for us?
I suggest the third option of proactively stopping your support of the status quo while defining and building a new alternative to the NWO is the least risky of the lot with the greatest potential for success as a bonus.
Most people have the misconception that the only alternative to entering a fight is doing nothing. That’s exactly the thinking the NWO wants from us because they know they can win a fight. The hero legend is promoted in much of our entertainment to make it more difficult for us to walk away, ignore the instigator of a fight, and get on with our business of creating a life where the instigator has no place.
Granted creating an alternative is a tall order but it is guaranteed to be effective if the attempt is successful. The NWO cannot follow and hound millions or billions of people, all at the same time, that simply walk away from their demands and do their own thing instead.
If the elite just attack some people peacefully working on an alternative they will soon have the whole population coming after them because they can no longer hide their intent.
Once the majority realizes the danger they are in the elite better watch out.
“Hi Ash,
The next step is to understand that “systems” have “architects.”
WHO designed the systems of control? WHO perpetuates them and keeps them SECRET from the populace?”
Triv it sounds like you are arguing for the “Intellegent Design” theory of human social structures and society and it sounds like Ash is arguing for the “Theory of Evolution” theory of human social structures.
From that perspective it seems unlikely that anyone who sees the societies we have now as something that has evolved (with the occasional attempts by members of the species to influence the direction of that evolution) is something that was wholly designed by members of our species.
The “architects” or “elites” might attempt to “select” for a particular trait, that doesn’t mean they wrote the DNA. The “traits” they have “selected” may have ascendence in one environment, but that doesn’t mean that the same trait won’t bite them in the ass if their environment changes. Being a sociopath might be useful in a world that has abundant resources and a relatively healthy ocean, land and air that allowed the growth of large disconnected populations, but in a time of scarcity and contraction, being untrustworthy may turn out to be a liability. The evidence that the trait might not ultimately succeed may only be apparent a few generations from now.
That’s my two cents anyway.
Candace
Candace post=2336 wrote: “Hi Ash,
The next step is to understand that “systems” have “architects.”
WHO designed the systems of control? WHO perpetuates them and keeps them SECRET from the populace?”
Triv it sounds like you are arguing for the “Intellegent Design” theory of human social structures and society and it sounds like Ash is arguing for the “Theory of Evolution” theory of human social structures.
From that perspective it seems unlikely that anyone who sees the societies we have now as something that has evolved (with the occasional attempts by members of the species to influence the direction of that evolution) is something that was wholly designed by members of our species.
The “architects” or “elites” might attempt to “select” for a particular trait, that doesn’t mean they wrote the DNA. The “traits” they have “selected” may have ascendence in one environment, but that doesn’t mean that the same trait won’t bite them in the ass if their environment changes. Being a sociopath might be useful in a world that has abundant resources and a relatively healthy ocean, land and air that allowed the growth of large disconnected populations, but in a time of scarcity and contraction, being untrustworthy may turn out to be a liability. The evidence that the trait might not ultimately succeed may only be apparent a few generations from now.
That’s my two cents anyway.
Candace
Hi Candace, interesting insight regarding ID and evolution.
As for the rest, when my 3 year old child asked me, while watching a Star Wars scene with the Emperor and Darth Vader going over their evil plans, “[D]o bad people know that other bad people are bad?”
I’m not so sure they do.
By the way, I don’t believe these criminals will win in the end. I believe good wins in the end.
But I do believe they will rain holy h*ll on the planet and its people before they lose – once and for all.
ashvin post=2328 wrote: Triv,
We are talking about completely different things now. You have a tendency to take my comments about very specific issues and shift them back to the general discussion that you want to have about debt dollar tyranny. I appreciate all of the links/info you post here, and I think it is helpful for others, but trust me when I say that none of it is new to me at all. I have watched all of Bill Still’s videos before, and I understand the various ways/examples how the debt-dollar system works and TPTB use it to control the media, academic institutions, government, etc.
RE and I were having a different discussion about the more finer points of conspiratorial narratives and meta-narratives, with the latter being ones which try to incorporate every major historical development in human civilization into a unified conspiratorial framework. They are basically trying to find the Theory of Everything when it comes to the evolution of human society. So I am not making a straw man argument in that discussion. Plenty of people out there argue those points all the time, and many of them are very influential in the “truther” movement.
Hi Ashvin, the main issue was that nobody credible claims the straw man you created and are, apparently, trying to light afire…
>>but I don’t agree that it has been the sole driver of major historical developments or that the conspirators have always maintained absolute control over the system as a whole.<< Nobody argues this. It doesn’t exist. Yet you build it up anyway, one piece of straw at a time. Why do you think people like me are in the fight, **with no help from TAE mind you**, to get GMO pesticide facsimile food labelled? Its a battle precisely because they don’t have complete control. But they have immense levels of control – they now claim the right to assassinate you or I with no evidence or oversight. They haven’t done so yet (you or I, who knows who they have assassinated in cold blood), but that doesn’t mean they won’t start it if enough people continue to embrace the jellyfish within. What kind of control does “the system” exert on you to keep you from resisting the tyranny of pesticide facsimile food? Let’s reverse engineer it because I really want to understand it so those of us who care can try and counteract the control mechanism.
JoeP post=2330 wrote: Peter O,
Enjoyed your post. Not sure, but I think the NWO meme is kinda unpopular at TAE.
NWO is just a name. Like Big Finance Capital. Or Den of Vipers. Or Money Power. It is all the same crowd.
Pick any name – but identify the criminals who are looting the nations for all they are worth, claiming the right to assassinate citizens with no evidence or oversight and to promote infanticide…
Killing babies no different from abortion, experts say
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9113394/Killing-babies-no-different-from-abortion-experts-say.htmlCalling them “late for lunch,” whatever, but get involved and resist these criminals before society is completely gutted by poverty and starvation so that they will grovel to lick the boots of these people with the weird name.
Candance, excellent analogy and you are spot on! Before I get into trouble, though, let me say that I don’t believe human societies evolve exactly according to the rules that biological species do, but there are many comparisons that can be made and your main point is valid. What is clear to me is that we are not living in a literal Matrix, in which everyone’s reality is programmed from the beginning. At least, there is no group of human beings that can act as the programmers.
Triv,
Hi Ashvin, the main issue was that nobody credible claims the straw man you created and are, apparently, trying to light afire…
>>but I don’t agree that it has been the sole driver of major historical developments or that the conspirators have always maintained absolute control over the system as a whole.<< Nobody argues this. It doesn’t exist. Yet you build it up anyway, one piece of straw at a time. Why do you think people like me are in the fight, **with no help from TAE mind you**, to get GMO pesticide facsimile food labelled?
Note the comment you keep quoting as a “straw man” was directed towards RE. He subsequently said he doesn’t believe that, which I take at face value (really, RE’s view and mine are very similar), but the point still remains that some of the people mentioned in our discussions do, such as David Icke. Alex Jones is slightly better in this regard, but not by a whole lot.
You, Triv, keep arguing in support of things that NO ONE is denying, as if we are denying them. I applaud you for battling the big agri-businesses and their malicious practices, but what does that have to do with the broad perspectives I have been discussing here? Absolutely nothing, that’s what. Most of us are already well aware of everything you have been saying, and, on top of that, we AGREE with you. So that has never been what this discussion is about.
I encourage you to keep doing what you do and posting links/info about these various govt/corporate shenanigans, but please don’t attack me as if I am disputing them and say that I am creating “straw mans” within a debate that I am not even having.
Peter,
I was simply outlining ONE potential (but major) risk that I see with your third option, and was not saying that its generally a bad idea. Of course I would rather see a peaceful transition to an alternative, sustainable way of living rather than bloody revolution. The reason I mentioned the risk is because I believe it is one that is most likely materializing within the truther movement right now. Specifically, the new age spiritual movements and their various icons. Many of their beliefs just so happen to coincide with the plans of the NWO elite, and they are the ones who will be (are) presenting us with these new “alternatives” to the globalist paradigm. I would just caution that we remain very skeptical of those alternatives until we can be certain that they are not simply another means of taking us to the exact same place TPTB want to go.
ashvin post=2341 wrote: Candance, excellent analogy and you are spot on! Before I get into trouble, though, let me say that I don’t believe human societies evolve exactly according to the rules that biological species do, but there are many comparisons that can be made and your main point is valid. What is clear to me is that we are not living in a literal Matrix, in which everyone’s reality is programmed from the beginning. At least, there is no group of human beings that can act as the programmers.
There most certainly is a group of people who can act as programmers. The people who run the mass media are in the business of programming opinion and nudging the control levers of power every day.
Besides them, if you are a child in the Public Schools you’re taught a very regimented way of thinking from a body of historical knowledge which is highly restricted and edited to conform to what the Illuminati want you to believe about history.
You don’t think Grand Theft Auto IV is a programming tool for the Human Brain? Where do you think the corps of Drone Pilots get their skills?
Note the comment you keep quoting as a “straw man” was directed towards RE. He subsequently said he doesn’t believe that, which I take at face value (really, RE’s view and mine are very similar), but the point still remains that some of the people mentioned in our discussions do, such as David Icke. Alex Jones is slightly better in this regard, but not by a whole lot.
This relates to the branch of this debate we are holding over in the parallel thread in the Diner, in which Ash asked me if I thought the Social and Political movements of the 19th and 20th centuries were directed. I answered that question but neglected to paste it over here. Did not get a response from Ash either to this.
https://www.doomsteaddiner.org/forum/index.php?topic=166.75
Ashvin wrote:
[quote=RE]I never made the claim that its the “sole driver” of major historical developments, for instance I don’t think the Illuminati caused Toba to erupt 75,000 years ago. There’s plenty of randomness in the system, but the primary historical narrative shows clear direction. Besides that, at least or the last 400 years since the BoE was founded the power centers in the City of London and Zurich have been abundantly clear. Besides that, the familial lines have held up quite well overall also, the House of Windsor for instance isn’t doing too bad and neither are the heirs of Mayer Rothschild or John D. Rockefeller. So why is it much of a leap to speculate that such maintenance of control doesn’t span millenia beyond centuries?OK, I understand that. But what do you think about episodes such as the 19th century socialist revolutions in Europe, or the 20th century momentum of labor movements in the West, or other similar things? Would you say that all of these significant events in human socioeconomic relations were orchestrated by the multi-generational elites, all part of their master plan for eventual global dominance? That’s what I mean by a lack of “absolute control” over the system as a whole. The system is not solely defined by the generalized paradigm of wealth/power concentration among an elite, coordinated group of people and their descendants, but rather is comprised of many different realities simultaneously existing and evolving for millions and now billions of people, some of which are rather detached from that general paradigm.
There is plenty of evidence that the Bolsheviks were funded by Illuminati including the Rockefellers and that just about all the European political machinatios have been influenced by agents working for them:
Europe
In the following, we are going to quote Benjamin Disraeli before he became the Chancellor of the Exchequer of Great Britain in 1856. These quotes are taken from Hansard’s Parliamentary Debates, (the equivalent of our Congressional Record). (Our quotes are based on Fisher [1991], pp. 18-19). On July 14, 1856, Benjamin Disraeli rose in the House of Commons to say:
“. . .There is in Italy a power which we seldom mention in this House, but without considering and understanding which we shall never rightly comprehend the position of Italy. I mean the secret societies. The secret societies do not care for constitutional government . . .
“lt is useless to deny. . . a great part of Europe – the whole of Italy and France, and a great portion of Germany, to say nothing of other countries — are covered with a network of these secret societies, just as the superficies of the earth is now being covered with railroads. And what are their objects? They do not attempt to conceal them. They do not want constitutional government. They do not want ameliorated institutions; they do not want provincial councils nor the recording of votes; they want. . .an end to ecclesiastical establishments. . . .
“I am told that a British Minister has boasted — and a very unwise boast it was — that he had only to hold up his hand and he could raise a revolution in Italy tomorrow. . .”
“A great prince fell suddenly. . . solely and entirely by the action of secret societies. That I apprehend is a fact which no man acquainted with the events of 1848 will deny!’
Mr. Disraeli was referring to the 1848 revolutions which rocked France, Italy, Germany and Austria, during which Prince Metternich, the well-known Austrian Foreign Minister, was forced to seek refuge in England.
An extraordinary political figure in Great Britain, twice Mr. Disraeli became Prime Minister (1868 and 1874-1880). He accepted a peerage with the title Earl of Beaconsfield in 1876. While he was Prime Minister, he delivered a speech at Aylesbury on September 20, 1876, in which he said:
“In the attempt to conduct the government of this world, there are new elements to be considered which our predecessors had not to deal with . . .the secret societies — an element which at the last moment may baffle all our arrangements, which have their agents everywhere, which have reckless agents which countenance assassination, and which, if necessary, could produce a massacre.”Bolsheviks
Freemasonry financed the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia 1917
In this section we are going to quote Larry Abraham from his book Call It Conspiracy, Double A Publications, P.O. Box 609, Wauna, Washington 98395.First, the leftist movement in the U.S was financed by the international bankers. Larry Abraham (p. 68) quotes Oswald Spengler, the great historian of the 20th century:
“There is no proletarian, not even a Communist, movement that has not operated in the interests of money, in the direction indicated by money, and for the time being permitted by money — and that without the idealists among its leaders having the slightest suspicion of the fact.” (Decline of the West, Modern Library, New York, 1945)
The Reece Committee which investigated foundations for Congress in 1953 proved with an overwhelming amount of evidence that the various Rockefeller and Carnegie foundations have been promoting socialism since their inception. (See René Wormser’s Foundations: Their Power and Influence, Devin Adair, New York, 1958.) (Abraham, p. 70)
Larry Abraham asserts that “the conspiracy had been planning the war (World War I) for over two decades. The assassination of an Austrian Archduke was merely an incident providing an excuse for starting a chain reaction.” (p.71) But we know now that even that “incident” was planned as well.
The war prolonged despite the stalemate in the battle front because of the entry of the U.S. into the war. Winston Churchill once observed that the world would have been better if the U.S. stayed out of it since “peace would have been made with Germany, and there would have been no collapse in Russia leading to Communism; no breakdown of government in Italy followed by Fascism; and Naziism never would have gained ascendancy in Germany.” (Social Justice Magazine, July 3, 1939, p. 4). But “World War I was a financial bonanza for the international bankers.” (ibid., pp. 74-75)
The Bolshevik Revolution happened, not because of the downtrodden masses rising up against exploiting bosses as the communists perpetuate the big lie, but because very powerful men in Europe and the United States sent Lenin in Switzerland and Trotsky in New York to Russia to organize it. (ibid., p. 76).
“Lenin was sent across Europe-at-war on the famous “sealed train.” With him Lenin took some $5 to $6 million in gold. The whole thing was arranged by the German high command and Max Warburg, through another very wealthy and lifelong socialist by the name of Alexander Helphand, alias “Parvus.” When Trotsky left New York with an American passport with his entourage of 275 revolutionaries. (ibid., pp. 76-77)
Jacob Schiff, senior partner in Kuhn, Leob & Co., and father-in-law of Max Warburg’s brother Felix, also helped finance Leon Trotsky. According to the New York Journal-American of February 3, 1949: “”Today it is estimated by Jacob’s grandson, John Schiff, that the old man sank about 20,000,000 dollars for the final triumph of Bolshevism in Russia.” (ibid., pp. 77-78)
Arsene de Goulevitch, an important White Russian General, wrote in his book Czarism and the Revolution :
“The main purveyors of funds for the revolution, however, were neither the crackpot Russian millionaires or the armed bandits of Lenin. The ‘real’ money primarily came from certain British and American circles which for a long time past had lent heir support to the Russian revolutionary cause. . . . The important part played by the wealthy American banker Jacob Schiff in the events in Russia, though as yet only partially revealed, is no longer a secret.” (ibid., p. 78)
General Alexander Nechvolodov is quoted by de Goulevitch as saying that:
“In April 1917, Jacob Schiff publicly declared that it was thanks to his financial support that the revolution in Russia had succeeded.”
Schiff’s participation in the Bolshevik Revolution was well known among Allied intelligence services at the time. Later evidence indicates that the bankrolling of the Bolsheviks was handled by a syndicate of international bankers, which in addition to the Schiff-Warburg clique, included Morgan and Rockefeller interests. Documents show that the Morgan organization put at least $1 million in the Red revolutionary kitty. The paymaster of these funds in Petrograd, where the Revolution started, was Lord Alfred Milner, head of the secret “Round Table” Group which was backed by Lord Rothschild. De Goulevitch reveals that:
“In private interviews I was told that over 21 million roubles were spent by Lord Milner in financing the Russian Revolution.” (ibid., pp. 79-80)
Professor Antony Sutton of Stanford University’s Hoover Institution on War, Revolution and Peace, using for the most part, official State Department documents, shows conclusively that virtually everything the Soviets possess has been acquired from the West. It is not much of an exaggeration to say that the U.S.S.R. was made in the U.S.A. (ibid., p. 83)Anyhow, Peter has a much deeper file of sources he has dug up on this kind of stuff, I just pulled that up with a quick Google of “Bolsheviks Illuminati”. Really, if you have Benjamin Disraeli in 1848 making a speech in front of Parliament that would be worthy of any Internet Conspiracy Theorist today you gotta figure there is some level of truth to this stuff.
I don’t necessarily agree with the idea that everything has been well planned out going back to time immemorial here, but the mechanisms of getting and maintaining power through debt and the monetary system definitely do go back to time immemorial. The means of instigating Revolutions and social disorder are well known, the CIA does it all the time. There is plenty of evidence to suggest a very long running conspiracy here. If it looks like a Dead Fish and smells like a Dead Fish, its probably a Dead Fish.
RE
Neither Alex Jones or David Icke are here to defend their opinions on just how deep the meta-narrative goes here, what we are attempting to determine is just how far back any of us will go here in discussion of who is pulling the levers of power and how they are doing it. It seems to me in the subtext of Ashvin’s last question to me that he doesn’t believe that things like the Bolshevik Revolution were directed by the Illuminati. There is however plenty of evidence to show that it was. You can also see from the speech of Benjamin Disraeli in 1848 that the Shadow Organizations existed back then, and this predates Da Fed and Debt-Dollar Tyranny by a long shot also. In fact it even predates the Civil War.
IMHO as to how far back I’ll generally go, its back to 1692 and the Chartering of the Bank of England. While I am pretty certain the conspiracy goes back further than that, ferreting out the connections is made difficult by the mists of time. In any event, if we can just unravel the matrix woven over these last 400 years we’ll be doing pretty good because it will expose those at the top responsible for the mess we are in right NOW. They are the ones who must be held to account for Crimes Against Humanity, not only their own in this generation but those in the time of their genetic and spiritual ancestors. They must be given a First Class Ticket to the Great Beyond, to Burn in Everlasting Torment in the Fire and Brimstone of Hell. And just in case there isn’t a Hell, on the way out it should be a very long and drawn out affair full of the most Agony we can muster up here. Bring on the Inquisition! Bring on the Auto da Fe! Bring on the Reign of Terror! Let the Pigmen shit their pants as they watch each of their brethren tortured and sew their eyelids open so they cannot shut their eyes. Lotsa people gotta die here no matter what, let’s make sure the RIGHT people go first into the Great Beyond.
RE
ashvin post=2341 wrote: What is clear to me is that we are not living in a literal Matrix, in which everyone’s reality is programmed from the beginning. At least, there is no group of human beings that can act as the programmers.
but the point still remains that some of the people mentioned in our discussions do, such as David Icke. Alex Jones is slightly better in this regard, but not by a whole lot.
Ash, I think your “black or white” thinking is causing some problems.
Again, nobody is arguing that everyone is programmed, “Matrix” style. I don’t even know why you brought that idea up. But many are claiming that there are programming mechanisms in place designed to manipulate people – including the people who are attempting to do the programming.
So, you are correct, there is no total “black” of programming, but nobody is wrong because nobody is arguing that. You miss the point that there is a gray area of “programming,” “control” and “manipulation” that is occurring in societies across the world. It isn’t 100%, but it is quite effective. So effective, in fact, it baffles me how it could possibly work. I’m still trying to reverse engineer it.
Propaganda, massive amounts of logical fallacies, a media controlled to where it hides the biting truth that humanity really needs to know… its all out there.
“And it seems to me perfectly in the cards that there will be within the next generation or so a pharmacological method of making people love their servitude, and producing a kind of painless concentration camp for entire societies, so that people will in fact have their liberties taken away from them but will rather enjoy it, because they will be distracted from any desire to rebel by propaganda, brainwashing, or brainwashing enhanced by pharmacological methods.”
~Aldous Huxley“In the technotronic society the trend would seem to be towards the aggregation of the individual support of millions of uncoordinated citizens, easily within the reach of magnetic and attractive personalities exploiting the latest communications techniques to manipulate emotions and control reason.”
― Zbigniew Brzezinski, Between Two Ages: America’s Role in the Technetronic EraEdward Bernays – Propaganda
https://archive.org/details/PorpagandaThe Ultimate Revolution – Aldous Huxley
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEXs3RspWyUThe Century of Self
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rDNt7hsBeABy the way, you grossly misstate the positions of Alex Jones and David Icke. The ENTIRE reason they are out fighting and resisting these tyrants in the “infowar” is PRECISELY because they don’t think these tyrants have the kind of control you claim they say they have.
Now, one could argue it is all and act for cash – the problem with that is that a little research proves that view to be incorrect (i could go on and on and on and on and on – government/bankster drug running, Corzine criminal activity, JP Morgan criminal activity, Goldman Sachs criminal activity, banker coups, Federal Reserve Criminal activity, gun running to drug cartels that launder their cash to the mega banks, toxic food, toxic water sold as mother’s milk…
That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history.
~Aldous HuxleyRE,
Note the word “literal” in front of Matrix. I suspect you knew that I was using it literally, because you know that I agree with everything you said about our coercive institutions (see The Debt-Dollar Discipline Parts I-III). Now we are getting into a quibble over words, but I think it’s clear that high levels of coercion/influence is distinct from actual “programming”, like computer software is programmed.
In my comment about the European 19th century socialist revolutions (which does not include the Bolshevik Revolution), I was referring mainly to the pan-European Revolutions of 1848. The fact is that I only have to provide one example of a major event within human society in the last few centuries that was not orchestrated by TPTB to undermine the “absolute control” myth. I believe there are more than one, but one will suffice.
The Bolshevik Revolution and the susbequent long-running Communist State of the Soviet Union was most certainly influenced by external, elite powers, to the point where I will even admit that it was planned all along to help the forces of evil. But can we say the same of the 1848 revolutions, or the Spanish Revolution in 1936? Or the numerous anti-capitalist revolutions in Latin America (most of the US/CIA orchestration was done to overthrow socialist regimes threatening to nationalize resources and replace them with puppet capitalists).
Was Jimmy Hoffa a CIA operative (as opposed to just another influential person who was assassinated by the CIA)??
Getting back to the Matrix, Triv,
The reason I brought it up was because you made an argument that our long-running system has “architects”, who have made sure that its specifically designed structures will cause people to think/behave in certain ways. Maybe you haven’t seen the movies, but that’s exactly the same word they use to described who designed the Matrix. Candace and I took issue with the use of the word “architect”, because it implies exactly the “black and white” way of thinking that you are now criticizing me of. I do not believe the system as a whole was designed by a conscious human force from the top-down, even though significant parts of it were (i.e. the FRA/Fed, Breton Woods Agreement, U.N., etc.).
So, you are correct, there is no total “black” of programming, but nobody is wrong because nobody is arguing that. You miss the point that there is a gray area of “programming,” “control” and “manipulation” that is occurring in societies across the world. It isn’t 100%, but it is quite effective. So effective, in fact, it baffles me how it could possibly work. I’m still trying to reverse engineer it.
Propaganda, massive amounts of logical fallacies, a media controlled to where it hides the biting truth that humanity really needs to know… its all out there.
I do not miss that point. I have been making that very same point in many different articles over the last 2 years. This whole discussion with you and RE has been to place emphasis on that point over either of the other extremes, i.e. there is very little control held by those at the top or there is absolute control held by those at the top.
By the way, you grossly misstate the positions of Alex Jones and David Icke. The ENTIRE reason they are out fighting and resisting these tyrants in the “infowar” is PRECISELY because they don’t think these tyrants have the kind of control you claim they say they have.
No, I am not misstating Icke’s position in terms of how human civilization has evolved throughout history. Just look it up. The only time he believes TPTB have lacked control is right now after the year 2012, due to spiritual energies that will swamp the Earth, emanating from the center of our galaxy and channeled through the Sun. He does claim to be a force for positive change against the NWO agenda, but, IMO, his actual ideas/message lead me to believe that he is the exact opposite of that. Here’s a video I posted up in DD about this issue – it’s well worth the listen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbEgvx1qelw&feature=player_embedded
ashvin post=2347 wrote: RE,
Note the word “literal” in front of Matrix. I suspect you knew that I was using it literally, because you know that I agree with everything you said about our coercive institutions (see The Debt-Dollar Discipline Parts I-III). Now we are getting into a quibble over words, but I think it’s clear that high levels of coercion/influence is distinct from actual “programming”, like computer software is programmed.
In my comment about the European 19th century socialist revolutions (which does not include the Bolshevik Revolution), I was referring mainly to the pan-European Revolutions of 1848. The fact is that I only have to provide one example of a major event within human society in the last few centuries that was not orchestrated by TPTB to undermine the “absolute control” myth. I believe there are more than one, but one will suffice.
The Bolshevik Revolution and the susbequent long-running Communist State of the Soviet Union was most certainly influenced by external, elite powers, to the point where I will even admit that it was planned all along to help the forces of evil. But can we say the same of the 1848 revolutions, or the Spanish Revolution in 1936? Or the numerous anti-capitalist revolutions in Latin America (most of the US/CIA orchestration was done to overthrow socialist regimes threatening to nationalize resources and replace them with puppet capitalists).
Was Jimmy Hoffa a CIA operative (as opposed to just another influential person who was assassinated by the CIA)??
I think we can defiitely say the same is true of the 1848 Revolutions (see the Disraeli speech in 1848), not to mention this was around the same time that Andrew Jackson was “Killing” the Second Bank of the FSofA. Those revolutions are all related to the problems the Illuminati were having with their Bannking system. The Spanish Revolution in 1936 of course came right in the thick of the Great Depression, again its the finance that causes the problems. Who has access to credit, who does not drives all the politics. All the world trade moves through the BIS, and it is through this main conduit that the Illuminati can lever power and make or break entire Nation States. All the micro outcomes of this aren’t predictable, but the macro ones most surely are. You get nations udergoing violent revolutions, they are going to need Guns and both sides need to borrow Money to buy those Guns. If you again control the manufacturing capacity for the Guns you can make or break either side simply by doing more vendor financing to the side that benefits you the most. Smedley Butler wrote about how all that works within the FSofA Military, and again much of that preceeded Da Fed and Debt-Dollar Tyranny as well.
You can also see how this worked in the opening of Japan for trade by Commodore Matthew Perry, also in 1848. I covered this in my Mr. Peabody visits Japan article.
https://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/2012/03/16/mr-peabody-visits-japan/
Might big Coinkidink it would be if all the revolutions in Europe, Andrew Jackson Killing the 2nd Bank of the FSofA, Benjamin Disraeli speaking in Parliament about Shadow Organizations and Matthew Perry steaming his Gunboats toward Japan were not all related to similar underlying causes, which indicates a vast central control mechanism already in place in 1848.
That the world revolves around money is a cliche, but an accurate one, and Money has not been under the control of the political apparatus of Nation-States for a long time now. Those who do control it hide in the shadows behind the walls of the BIS, which itself is likely just a front organization.
You wanna know who is running this show and how the control is effected? Follow the Money trail, and it all leads back to the same places, Switzerland, the City of London and then before that to the House of Medici and the Holy Roman Catholic Church.
Far as Jimmy Hoffa is concerned, he was a relatively small player in all of this, whichever team it was he was really playing for. You’re not going to grasp the Big Picture if you bog down in who Offed Hoffa and if he is pushing up daisies at the 50 yard line in the Meadowlands.
RE
ashvin post=2347 wrote: RE,
Note the word “literal” in front of Matrix. I suspect you knew that I was using it literally, because you know that I agree with everything you said about our coercive institutions (see The Debt-Dollar Discipline Parts I-III). Now we are getting into a quibble over words, but I think it’s clear that high levels of coercion/influence is distinct from actual “programming”, like computer software is programmed.
In my comment about the European 19th century socialist revolutions (which does not include the Bolshevik Revolution), I was referring mainly to the pan-European Revolutions of 1848. The fact is that I only have to provide one example of a major event within human society in the last few centuries that was not orchestrated by TPTB to undermine the “absolute control” myth. I believe there are more than one, but one will suffice.
The Bolshevik Revolution and the susbequent long-running Communist State of the Soviet Union was most certainly influenced by external, elite powers, to the point where I will even admit that it was planned all along to help the forces of evil. But can we say the same of the 1848 revolutions, or the Spanish Revolution in 1936? Or the numerous anti-capitalist revolutions in Latin America (most of the US/CIA orchestration was done to overthrow socialist regimes threatening to nationalize resources and replace them with puppet capitalists).
Was Jimmy Hoffa a CIA operative (as opposed to just another influential person who was assassinated by the CIA)??
Getting back to the Matrix, Triv,
The reason I brought it up was because you made an argument that our long-running system has “architects”, who have made sure that its specifically designed structures will cause people to think/behave in certain ways. Maybe you haven’t seen the movies, but that’s exactly the same word they use to described who designed the Matrix. Candace and I took issue with the use of the word “architect”, because it implies exactly the “black and white” way of thinking that you are now criticizing me of. I do not believe the system as a whole was designed by a conscious human force from the top-down, even though significant parts of it were (i.e. the FRA/Fed, Breton Woods Agreement, U.N., etc.).
So, you are correct, there is no total “black” of programming, but nobody is wrong because nobody is arguing that. You miss the point that there is a gray area of “programming,” “control” and “manipulation” that is occurring in societies across the world. It isn’t 100%, but it is quite effective. So effective, in fact, it baffles me how it could possibly work. I’m still trying to reverse engineer it.
Propaganda, massive amounts of logical fallacies, a media controlled to where it hides the biting truth that humanity really needs to know… its all out there.
I do not miss that point. I have been making that very same point in many different articles over the last 2 years. This whole discussion with you and RE has been to place emphasis on that point over either of the other extremes, i.e. there is very little control held by those at the top or there is absolute control held by those at the top.
By the way, you grossly misstate the positions of Alex Jones and David Icke. The ENTIRE reason they are out fighting and resisting these tyrants in the “infowar” is PRECISELY because they don’t think these tyrants have the kind of control you claim they say they have.
No, I am not misstating Icke’s position in terms of how human civilization has evolved throughout history. Just look it up. The only time he believes TPTB have lacked control is right now after the year 2012, due to spiritual energies that will swamp the Earth, emanating from the center of our galaxy and channeled through the Sun. He does claim to be a force for positive change against the NWO agenda, but, IMO, his actual ideas/message lead me to believe that he is the exact opposite of that. Here’s a video I posted up in DD about this issue – it’s well worth the listen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbEgvx1qelw&feature=player_embedded
Hi Ash,
We are completely talking past each other and understanding isn’t about to come if it hasn’t already.
Perhaps the wall falls as the you see Henry Ford’s insight become even more true…
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning. The one aim of these financiers is world control by the creation of inextinguishable debt.” Henry Ford
The bad guys need to be outed. Those who wait for the bad guys to step forward up and share their blueprint for manipulating the masses (when they’ve already shared it, but people don’t want to listen, even when repetitively quoted) will fall into the “inattentive to duty” category.
“The brave man inattentive to his duty, is worth little more to his country than the coward who deserts in the hour of danger.”
~Andrew JacksonThe hour of danger is now.
It is true – TAE’s approach is to tell people to go get some supplies and hide in a corner as someone is breaking into their home.
Other people, who understand that the neighbor said he would break into the home and stab everyone to death, are telling people that hiding away isn’t enough.
I so hope you are right. I so think you are wrong.
TheTrivium4TW post=2350 wrote:
The hour of danger is now.It is true – TAE’s approach is to tell people to go get some supplies and hide in a corner as someone is breaking into their home.
Other people, who understand that the neighbor said he would break into the home and stab everyone to death, are telling people that hiding away isn’t enough.
I so hope you are right. I so think you are wrong.
There really is nowhere left to run, nowhere left to hide anymore, even if you are wiling and able to head for the hills and the far edge of civilization. All you do with this methodology is somewhat increase your survival possibilities, but you still will be negatively affected by the “fallout” in both the literal and figurative sense here. I live just about as far out on the edge of Human Civilization as you can GET and still have a connection to the internet in one of the lowest population density areas on the face of the earth, and STILL I know for sure where I live will be negatively affected by this collapse.
So yes I agree with you Triv that nobody will entirely escape the consequences of this by hiding out and prepping up, at least short of going the Full Primitive and heading up to Nunavut to join the Inuit or joining with the Bushmen of the Kalahari. So a FIGHT must be made in all the rest of the places on the Face of the Earth, and EVERYBODY in those places has to line up on one side or the other, no Fence Sitting allowed.
You can prep up, you can avoid the fight for a while, but eventually it will come to a Theatre Near You. IMHO though, you try to avoid the fight for just so long as you can, until the day comes when the Conduits FAIL. When not If they do, all bets are OFF. Then it is time not to just GET MAD, but GET EVEN. Take no Prisoners in the Last Battle for All the Marbles. It is Good vs Evil in the End here, and it is Written that the Meek Shall Inherit the Earth. I add to that it will not happen until the Meek get very, VERY Angry here.
Bring on the Inquisition. Bring on the Auto Da Fe. Bring on the Reign of Terror. Bring on the Orkn Man. BRING IT ON! It’s the only way to wipe out the Vermin and kill the Cancer of Money.
RE
I beg to differ with you on the issue of MONEY. You say it is the root of all evil, but really it is the system of extraction of wealth from the “3rd” world and from wage slaves that is the problem.
RE said:
“The very SAME people who began it obviously no longer run it, but it is designed in such a way as to make sure that their Heirs do, both of the Genetic Kind and the Spiritual Kind. The SYTEM itself is the EVIL. The system is MONEY, and it is the ROOT of all Evil.”BTW your rants take on biblical language, were you a preacher in a previous lifetime?
And – No, Money was only instituted in about 600 bc, but the “system” may be as old as war.
I recommend David Graeber’s book, “Debt, the first 5000 years”.
This work by David Graeber (who is known as one of the theorists of the OWS and anarchist movement) has some very insightful facts from history and anthropology showing that debt has been in existence for millennia and is based originally on not barter (of which there is no real evidence), but on the trade of favors. Money on the other hand rose from the need to pay soldiers who were not neighbors, but mercenaries who could not be counted on to return favors or debts. Before the invention of coin or cash, the first agrarian empires used elaborate credit systems to buy and sell goods.
Glennda post=2362 wrote: RE
I beg to differ with you on the issue of MONEY. You say it is the root of all evil, but really it is the system of extraction of wealth from the “3rd” world and from wage slaves that is the problem.
RE said:
“The very SAME people who began it obviously no longer run it, but it is designed in such a way as to make sure that their Heirs do, both of the Genetic Kind and the Spiritual Kind. The SYTEM itself is the EVIL. The system is MONEY, and it is the ROOT of all Evil.”BTW your rants take on biblical language, were you a preacher in a previous lifetime?
And – No, Money was only instituted in about 600 bc, but the “system” may be as old as war.
Money was only instituted in 600BC. WTF? Where do you get that date from?
Genesis 47:14 wrote: Joseph collected all the money that was to be found in Egypt and Canaan in payment for the grain they were buying, and he brought it to Pharaoh’s palace.
Biblical Timelines put the time of Joseph around 1700 BC
Additional World Events at this point on the Bible Timeline
At about this time in history, just before 1700 B.C. Egypt was an important power in the ancient world and the Hittites were established in Anatolia ( modern Turkey) and with them the Assyrians had trading connections.Money clearly existed in 1700 BC, so I have no clue how you come up with 600BC as a Start Date. Beyond the Biblical shit, its pretty obvious how money developed out of Agriculture, which goes back at least 10,000BC and Babylon DEFINITELY used money in the heyday of that civilization which was around 1500 BC I think. To say Money popped into existence in 600BC doesn’t match up too well with either biblical accounts or anthropological accounting.
Far as my rants in a Previous Life are concerned, I’m not all too sure of them as each time I get reborn the slate gets wiped pretty clean and remembering the old stuff is tough for me. LOL. So mostly I just stick to the here and now of what I see around me, and I try not to argue for stupid concepts like Money was only invented in 600BC. This is so obviously WRONG it discredits anything you might write after it.
I am most certainly in THIS life a Preacher though, that is without doubt 🙂 For the record also, I am not a Christian and just use the Bible as a mataphorical reference most of the time, though it does give you some reference points historically, probably going back about 5000BC to the beginnings of Ag society in the Fertile Crescent. Most of the early stuff in the Old Testament is likely to be translated from Oral tradition until wriitng developed, more or less I think around 3000 BC.
Jeeze, RE, I think you need to do a review of your ancient history.
The bible does not come from oral history from 3000bc, where did you find that?
Here is a student to student timeline I quickly googled and found. It has some inaccuracies, but not too bad. [They call 1000bc the end of the Stone Age where I would have called that late Bronze age.] I guess I was not clear that I meant Mediterranean coinage.
https://library.thinkquest.org/28718/history.html
“Shells
At about 1200 B.C. in China, cowry shells became the first medium of exchange, or money. The cowry has served as money throughout history even to the middle of this century.
First Metal Money
China, in 1,000 B.C., produced mock cowry shells at the end of the Stone Age. They can be thought of as the original development of metal currency. In addition, tools made of metal, like knives and spades, were also used in China as money. From these models, we developed today’s round coins that we use daily. The Chinese coins were usually made out of base metals which had holes in them so that you could put the coins together to make a chain.
Silver
At about 500 B.C., pieces of silver were the earliest coins. Eventually in time they took the appearance of today and were imprinted with numerous gods and emperors to mark their value. These coins were first shown in Lydia, or Turkey, during this time, but the methods were used over and over again, and further improved upon by the Greek, Persian, Macedonian, and Roman empires. Not like Chinese coins, which relied on base metals, these new coins were composed from scarce metals such as bronze, gold, and silver, which had a lot of intrinsic value.”Wikipedia is better for Money, but I think you mean “commodity money” which may be more of an accounting system. How could someone lug around quantities of barley?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money“Main article: History of money
The use of barter-like methods may date back to at least 100,000 years ago, though there is no evidence of a society or economy that relied primarily on barter.[9] Instead, non-monetary societies operated largely along the principles of gift economics and debt.[10][11] When barter did in fact occur, it was usually between either complete strangers or potential enemies.[12]
Many cultures around the world eventually developed the use of commodity money. The shekel was originally a unit of weight, and referred to a specific weight of barley, which was used as currency.[13] The first usage of the term came from Mesopotamia circa 3000 BC. Societies in the Americas, Asia, Africa and Australia used shell money – often, the shells of the money cowry (Cypraea moneta L. or C. annulus L.). According to Herodotus, the Lydians were the first people to introduce the use of gold and silver coins.[14] It is thought by modern scholars that these first stamped coins were minted around 650–600 BC.[15]”
Glennda post=2365 wrote: Jeeze, RE, I think you need to do a review of your ancient history.
The bible does not come from oral history from 3000bc, where did you find that?
Here is a student to student timeline I quickly googled and found. It has some inaccuracies, but not too bad. [They call 1000bc the end of the Stone Age where I would have called that late Bronze age.] I guess I was not clear that I meant Mediterranean coinage.
https://library.thinkquest.org/28718/history.html
“Shells
At about 1200 B.C. in China, cowry shells became the first medium of exchange, or money. The cowry has served as money throughout history even to the middle of this century.
First Metal Money
China, in 1,000 B.C., produced mock cowry shells at the end of the Stone Age. They can be thought of as the original development of metal currency. In addition, tools made of metal, like knives and spades, were also used in China as money. From these models, we developed today’s round coins that we use daily. The Chinese coins were usually made out of base metals which had holes in them so that you could put the coins together to make a chain.
Silver
At about 500 B.C., pieces of silver were the earliest coins. Eventually in time they took the appearance of today and were imprinted with numerous gods and emperors to mark their value. These coins were first shown in Lydia, or Turkey, during this time, but the methods were used over and over again, and further improved upon by the Greek, Persian, Macedonian, and Roman empires. Not like Chinese coins, which relied on base metals, these new coins were composed from scarce metals such as bronze, gold, and silver, which had a lot of intrinsic value.”Wikipedia is better for Money, but I think you mean “commodity money” which may be more of an accounting system. How could someone lug around quantities of barley?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money“Main article: History of money
The use of barter-like methods may date back to at least 100,000 years ago, though there is no evidence of a society or economy that relied primarily on barter.[9] Instead, non-monetary societies operated largely along the principles of gift economics and debt.[10][11] When barter did in fact occur, it was usually between either complete strangers or potential enemies.[12]
Many cultures around the world eventually developed the use of commodity money. The shekel was originally a unit of weight, and referred to a specific weight of barley, which was used as currency.[13] The first usage of the term came from Mesopotamia circa 3000 BC. Societies in the Americas, Asia, Africa and Australia used shell money – often, the shells of the money cowry (Cypraea moneta L. or C. annulus L.). According to Herodotus, the Lydians were the first people to introduce the use of gold and silver coins.[14] It is thought by modern scholars that these first stamped coins were minted around 650–600 BC.[15]”
You are undermining your own argument here. The Cowrie Shells were used as money back 1200BC according to what yourself Googled up. The only dating you have for 600BC is PM COINAGE, not MONEY. Coinage obviously had to wait until mettallurgy was sufficiently develped, but MONEY clearly existed before PM coinage did, by your own admission and Googling.
Debt sytems existed before PM coinage did, no doubt there.Debt systems are MONEY systems, as long as they are numerically accounted for anyhow. Money is an abstraction, it is numbers attached to extraction of resoure. You can use anything to represent the numbers, and before metallurgy other things were used. However, money as a concept predates coinage. I’lll setle on about 3000BC for this but its not that important the precise moment at which it emerged here. What is iprtant is that when it did, it represented OWNERSHIP over the Earht and its resources. Land at first, Oil and Energy now, but this is what all money represents really. It is your Title to some portion of the Earth. some poeple have a big title to it based on the historical development of the system, others are copletely shut out. Born in the right place, you can maneuver your way into the Ownership of the Earth, but overall most people are shut out of this game of Money, be it PMs, Cowrie Shells or digibits on Helicopeter Ben’s laptop.
RE
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