Russian Union Of Engineers Accuses Ukraine Airforce In MH17 Crash
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DPC Old Charter Street burying ground, Salem, Massachusetts 1906 The Russian Union of Engineers has issued a report on what happened to flight MH17. T
[See the full post at: Russian Union Of Engineers Accuses Ukraine Airforce In MH17 Crash]Great catch. The only logical explanation is that Ukraine shot MH-17 down.
I have some familiarity with weapon systems and ballistics. I believe this report to be a very good assessment of the facts as studied.
Now, the question is; what is the reason Ukraine shot down MH-17?
With today’s twisted body politic, I can only imagine a very twisted justification…It is not true that “all other sources” say that MH17 was downed by a ground-to-air missile. The Perdana Global Peace Movement in Malaysia at its website runs a piece by Michel Chossudovsky under the title “Support MH17: OSCE Monitors identity “Shrapnel and machine-gun-like holes indicating shelling. No evidence of a missile attack. Shot down by a military aircraft.” https://www.perdana4peace.org/2014/support-mh17-truth-osce-monitors-identify-shrapnel-and-machine-gun-like-holes-indicating-shelling-no-evidence-of-a-missile-attack-shot-down-by-a-military-aircraf/
Sorry, unrelated to post, but I’ve just caught up with TAE and would like people to see my reply to yesterdays post and comments. (also posted there)
@ Sprocket “They would not embrace free market bullshit like England”… granted that’s what you have heard.
With respect that is total and utter bollocks, this man is TEARING SCOTLAND TO PIECES for economic growth, greed and free marketeering.
I’m sorry Ilargi but you’re just flat wrong! these development atrocities etc. NEVER happened before the SNP came to power and if there is a yes vote today this party will be empowered like never before and Scotland will be put through the mincer by these money obsessed vermin, its simply Pollyanna fantasy to suggest we’ll rid ourselves of the SNP after independence, they are in for ten years following a yes vote and I absolutely dread to think what Scotland will look like after that as everything will be thrown under the bus so that this dictatorial greedy little money grubbing bastard can satisfy his growth at all costs imperative, the very antithesis of TAE philosophy I would have thought.
So then… my beautiful country has to be trashed from tip to toe so that we can give the establishment a kicking, yeah great if you ain’t got to live with it. Scotland will get another crack at this (circa 2020 IMO) with a party who (hopefully) genuinely care for the country, not a lunatic economic visionary running around destroying the village to save the village, and, after listening to Salmond’s plans for Scotland after a yes vote last night I no longer have a heavy heart about voting no today, London have NEVER torn up so much of this country for profit in sixty years as this lot have done in six.
Welcome to Scotland industrial theme park. People really need to get on board with what this lot are doing, I’ll give you a starter for ten – the Menie estate Aberdeenshire, SSSI
designated, an outstanding once in a universe time natural wonder, democratically voted against, overturned and allowed by our Scottish patriot Salmond to pander to DONALD FUCKING TRUMP,…….. there’s oh so much more, but unfortunately I don’t have a spare fortnight to regale you all.
There was an article at TAE a wee while ago denouncing some east European wilderness area being hydro’ed or whatever… but it’s OK for Salmond to wreak havoc on Scotland as long as behemoth power structures are wobbled?? I’m a NO (this time)Z
@Zander: My friends in Scotland many of whom are yes must be totally duped by this megalomaniac then. Only one Tory MP in the whole of the country. Could it be they want out because they collectively despise the Tories but they’re always in power in Westminster?
And yes the consequences are unknown – obviously – but enough people want to take the gamble. What does that tell you about Tory rule from London? You’ve obviously forgotten Thatcher but maybe you’re not as old as me!
Today the poll of polls shows a no majority. Privatisation of the NHS could be slowed down by this vote. If nothing else the Tories know they’re hanging on by a thread most of which is yarned in Southern England.
Halva, I don’t really see Chossudovsky as a source, not in the sense that I meant to use the word. He’s an opinion man. Stopped reading him eons ago because there’s far too much loose cannon about him for me. What I meant was – major – news sources. They all have the same spin. Luckily, there are plenty other people who don’t buy into that.
Zander
For some reason I wonder why you’re so sure the Scots will put up with all the craziness you describe. And if they do, isn’t that what they deserve? BTW, Euan in Aberdeen has some sort of referendum special on Energy Matters. He must be feeling shaky today, like so many other Albionians.
How rude. This is about MH-17.
Show Raul some respect for his hard work, no?
Sorry Raul, you jumped in at the same time I posted.
Maybe I’m out of order…Roel, the report on flight MH17 is very important. I never got a reply from our Foreign Secretary and so will send him the link and a gentle reminder. I did get a reply from Dame Anne Begg asking to be kept informed.
I guess the Russian report is inconclusive. But it is telling when they say that it is only Russia that are seeking an explanation and that the Dutch report is delayed. The absence of a filmed vapour trail is also rather telling, although it was “overcast” on the day. It will be excruciating embarrassing for NATO to learn that their new best friend in the region might just be responsible.
Scotland and FREEDoooooooooooooM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/scotland-decides/poll-tracker
Good source of polling history. All the polls show NO with a narrow lead. Yes it is rather tense knowing that tomorrow morning may see the start of an 18 month process to leave the UK. I know Roel thinks we should vote yes, but I tend to be risk averse. I juts paid over £100 for a new British Passport and I wouldn’t want that money to be wasted, would I 😉
This is also an interesting read.
Ewan Morrison – YES: Why I Joined Yes and Why I Changed to No
V. The story everywhere today is Scotland. Wouldn’t even want to get in the way of that.
No problem. I’m old school… 😉
Euan,
I find it striking that 1) the Dutch report confidently states there were no planes anywhere near MH17, while the Russians have always said there was. The Dutch team undoubtedly knows this, but never addressed it, and 2) that the Dutch said the holes in the fuselage were consistent with a BUK rocket, while the Russians rule that out precisely because of those same holes.
Right now, I see Poroshenko addressing the US Congress, and he states as a fact that Russia and the rebels shot down MH17. All I want is facts, but I can’t get them.
I’m convinced they’re going to start shooting and bombing again soon, because nothing has been solved. East Ukraine will never volunteer to remain part of Ukraine. They’ll point to Scotland as an example of how people can choose to be their own boss.
@sprocketsanjay
I’m hearing you and Ilargi…. really I am, and am as anti-establishment a geezer as you could wish to meet.
I’m a miners son AND a hill walker and lover of our irreplaceable mountains and glens so…
Thatcher destroyed our industries and economy, Salmond is destroying our environment, both done these things for money and power and I’m having a hell of a hard time figuring out who is worse… If you are money obsessed its Thatcher if you value the other, finer, better things in life about Scotland it’s Salmond – with more to come if he gains absolute power.
But never mind the duped maniacal yes supporters, get your butt up to the SSSI designated spectacular sand dunes on the Menie estate and marvel at how they’ve been transformed into a 15k per day golf course for the uber wealthy in a deal cooked up between Mr S and the ever loveable Trump (arch Thatcher-ite) and while journeying marvel at the hills and glens absolutely TRASHED by the hoax that is the industrial wind farm development (do some homework up front on FF input for these monstrosities – our finite world is as good a place as any to start- then get back to me yeah.It’s 5pm ish here and I’ve decided not to vote as I despise Westminster AND the dictatorial pestilence at Holyrood. I’m encouraging neither.
Corp. tax decreases, in bed with Murdoch the beast (remember Milly dowler) and Trump, in bed with multi national multi billion energy company parasites like SSE colluding to destroy our countryside for profit and GDP growth – nothing more – old Maggie would be proud, THOSE are a few of the truths that YES dare not mention by name, of course they are welcome to refute any of this any time they want, I look forward to the deafening silence
Z.
I have just read the link provided by Euan Mearns from Ewan Morrison and am going to the polling station to vote, I’m afraid it all too clearly echoes my own thoughts and experiences and has swayed me convincingly,
Have enjoyed all the to-ing and fro-ing with others on the site but quite frankly I’ve had more than enough of the neverendum, and am relieved to be free of the indecision.
I shall now retire to lurkerland but am always here at the AE oasis.good luck to all
Z.
Su-25 does not fly @ enough altitude to attack passenger jet w/ machine cannon. It is a ground attack aircraft like US A-10.
Discredits the entire report, written by amateurs w/ axe to grind.
“Good luck to all.”
Yes. Luck is all we have left to believe in here on planet gulag.
Elections do bring out the believers in Statist fairy tales. As Boris on ZH says, Diebold or die trying.
But, polarization it is, as dualistic thinking folks adopt the talking points of their perceived benefactors.
Of course, after the election is over, and both sides of the voting coin begin to realize they were duped, amazement sets in, as they all declare, “We had such high hopes for this politician or that outcome. How could we have been so betrayed?”
And the State wins!
Why? Because it seems universal, that most all vote for the lesser of two evils,,,admitting they vote for evil.
Critical thinkers are always trumped by mob mentality and electioneering hysteria, because the establishment convinces the populace it’s vote is too valuable a thing to waste on fringe candidates and untried ideas. So, it only provides choices from within it’s realm.
Round and round it goes until another populist arises and smashes it all to bits.
But for sure, zander, though I understand your frustration, I learned a long time ago that no politician has ever had my best interests at heart. That I must break free of the popular delusion that organized government is anything but evil, and that I must rely on myself, to what ever extent possible, in the end, if I value any semblance of peace of mind.
Ps. don’t lurk too long. Debate and resistance to totalitarian elements are all that is between us and assorted mushroom clouds simultaneously fogging up the atmosphere.
I sincerely don’t know whether I’m correct or mistaken with parts of what I’m about to say, but here’s how my little mind has things stacked up. Any and all guidance from the better minds here would be appreciated.
More than determining which set of tyrants will rule them, Scots are determining whether to remain with the British pound, migrate to the Euro, or even to issue their own money supply through a state-owned bank (though that last option might just be wishful thinking). That tells me that the whole populist / independence thing is just another “democracy” smokescreen being used to hide the fact that this referendum is about:
1. The pound versus the Euro
2. Westminster vs. Brussels
3. Who gets rights to the oil profitsAfter a yes vote, power players resting quietly in the background will move into the vacuum and take control, and if Scots find greater freedom as a result, it will only be in trivial ways. Steal the meat of the country and throw the citizens a bone.
The American “Declaration of Independence” – – the document itself – – was perhaps the most important product of the American Revolution, as it naturally led to the U.S. Constitution, which attempted to perpetually secure the independence of EACH and every American FROM HIS OWN AMERICAN GOVERNMENT. That is all apparently missing from the Scottish attempt at “independence,” and I shudder to think that they’re possibly choosing between the fire and the frying pan today.
Karl Denninger writes, “The reason the UK is freaking out is because if Scotland secedes all of the derivatives on UK sovereign debt trigger, and while that may not sound all that awful since they haven’t defaulted (yet) the protection evaporates and that triggering means that holders of said derivatives can force delivery on the derivative contract!”
https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=229419
So the immediate aftermath of the Scottish vote might be considerably more “interesting” than most Scots presently realize.
MH 17. It’s fate has already been decided. The final marketing package has not been prepared yet. The political engineering associations in the State Department and Capitol Hill are working on it.
8×10 color glossies will be released in a year or so, after most of the remaining conflicting evidence is disposed of, and short memory spans purged.
@steve from virgina,
A comment from an article over at Washington’s Blog that is worth considering:
“Note that the Ukrainians have a model of SU25 that can cruise at 10,000 meters (about 33,000 feet), though its ceiling for short times is much higher. Note that MH17 was ordered by flight control to descend to 33,000 feet from 35,000 feet. “Coincidentally”, that change makes a fighter strike that much easier.
For weeks prior to its downing, MH17 had avoided the war zone, flying around it each day. On the 17th there is a kink in its flight path, where it appears to have been redirected over the battlefield. UKR refuses to release Air Traffic Control tapes which would indicate who sent MH17 into closed air space.”
For your consideration/commentary:
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-18/more-just-gas-natural-resource-reason-ukraine-civil-war
Old King Coal…
Cheers,
GBV“It will be excruciating embarrassing for NATO to learn that their new best friend in the region might just be responsible.”
From my observations of the way things actually work, I think you have this back to front. This was almost certainly a “Made in USA” false-flag. The fact that the media in the West seems to have been primed to expect a scoop says it all. Quite possibly, the pilots who carried out this act are either Polish or American. I suspect the Ukrainians are just doing as they are told.
Don’t forget that Rasmussen – secretary general of NATO – was a cheerleader for the Iraq WMD lies.
“Iraq has WMDs. It is not something we think, it is something we know. Iraq has itself admitted that it has had mustard gas, nerve gas, anthrax, but Saddam won’t disclose. He won’t tell us where and how these weapons have been destroyed. We know this from the UN inspectors, so there is no doubt in my mind. ”
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Anders_Fogh_Rasmussen
A look at Paul Craig Roberts’ article about 9/11 will confirm that we are dealing with total maniacs here:
Exit polls predict “NO” takes it 54% to 46%
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/seize-opportunity-salmond-232155199.html#iAq4l7ONassim – “From my observations of the way things actually work, I think you have this back to front. This was almost certainly a “Made in USA” false-flag.” Totally agree with you. NATO would be embarrassed? Only if the real truth comes out, and how is that going to happen when you control the truth?
So far Russia is trying to be transparent, but NATO is not. Where are the conversation logs from Air Traffic Control, which were seized by the Ukraine Secret Service on the day of the accident? Where is the black box transcript from MH17 (the last ten to fifteen minutes of flight time)? Where is the data from the U.S. spy satellite that was flying right overhead?
NATO is trying to SAVE themselves from embarrassment by not providing these important details. Even Karl Denninger, after reading the Dutch report, said “there was no fighter jet, period.” Aghhhhhhhhh!
Oh dear, you spend lots of time, quite rightly, telling us that there is no good evidence for anything that happened to MH-17, then this. Personally, I don’t think we’ll ever know exactly what happened to that flight and I’m not prepared to believe either side just because I want to.
Professor – I think you’re right. The truth will be their version of the truth, all wrapped up in a nice tidy package. Anyone asking questions or doubting their version will be labeled a “conspiracy nutcase”. Done.
Zander – “…I absolutely dread to think what Scotland will look like after that as everything will be thrown under the bus so that this dictatorial greedy little money grubbing bastard can satisfy his growth at all costs imperative…”
Zander, development is happening everywhere. Consider yourself lucky that you’ve only seen it for the past six years. If it wasn’t Salmond, it would be someone else. The whole world is going this way, at least in countries where there is a rule of law, and in and around the beautiful cities of said countries where council members and politicians allow the old to be demolished, the landscape to be stripped of its beauty, heritage and culture to be massacred, and all for the almighty buck.
Oh, the politicians cry out that they’re allowing this to happen because of JOBS, or that “we need more growth”. It’s always hard to argue against jobs, so they shut you up this way. Of course, we all know they could care less about jobs. What they’re really interested in is lining their own pockets (or the pockets of their brother-in-law, whatever).
Just yesterday I read a comment from a Chinese citizen who is looking to get into Scotland. This corrupt/hot money is desperately trying to get out (before they’re strung up by angry peasants), and our greedy politicians/bankers/developers will sell our countries down the river to get it.
You reject Salmond, but get ready for a deluge. It doesn’t matter who is in power. If you want to stop what’s happening (and what is going to happen to your country), be prepared for a battle. They will ruin your country.
TonyPrep – “Personally, I don’t think we’ll ever know exactly what happened to that flight and I’m not prepared to believe either side just because I want to.”
About the only thing we can do is call for ALL evidence to be forthcoming (see my post above). If there was an international investigation with ALL evidence provided (the black box, the conversation logs, the satellite data, the Russian data, a report from impartial plane crash investigators), why wouldn’t we be able to get to the truth? It would be screaming out at us.
So let’s call for ALL of the evidence, not just selective evidence.
Here is a list (towards bottom of page) of the Ukraine’s aircraft inventory. Note that they have 55 SU-27’s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Air_Force
Maximum speed: 1,550 mph
Service ceiling: 62,000 feet
Rate of climb: 52,000 feet/minutehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-27
I keep hearing that Ukraine’s SU-25 wouldn’t go to the height of MH17, but maybe they were flying SU-27’s. They certainly have them.
steve from virginia
Su-25 does not fly @ enough altitude to attack passenger jet w/ machine cannon. It is a ground attack aircraft like US A-10.Variable81 is correct. The later variants of the SU-25 have the ceiling, weapons (A-A missiles) and the radar.
Nothing to fret about, it’s too close to call,,,,https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-18/what-happens-when-scottish-voters-give-it-their-110-according-cnn?page=1
I don’t know if I believe this but, an anonymous millionaire has offered $30 million for the facts of who shot down MH-17.
I apologize in advance for the source;
https://news.yahoo.com/mysterious-millionaire-pay-30m-know-exactly-shot-down-171700050.htmlWe’ll see…
Truthout has an excellent scholarly article, which looks at the stages between colonialism and genocide.
In colonialism, something like slave-labor is needed from the underclass.
In genocide, only their property is desired, not their bodies.
Numerous instances are given by the university professor author.
Colonialism in India was at one end, and genocide of Native Americans (ongoing in South America) at the other end.
Palestinians have been getting run through this ringer, from one end to the other, and genocide is now becoming preferable to Israeli elites.
Lots of labor can be brought in from other countries, and sent back at any time, as is being done.
Humans are a commodity.
https://truth-out.org/news/item/26254-the-political-economy-of-israeli-apartheid-and-the-specter-of-genocide
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