The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On?
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If our universe overseers actually saw an extinction level event on the horizon, don’t you think they would take action to head off such an event? Since they have not, at least not yet, then they must trust us to solve these many problems on our own.
As I recall from Bible class many decades ago, not only did Yahweh not head off the great flood which pushed the human race into near extinction, he engineered it in a fit of pique. But I always suspected that he was psychotic.
You can’t solve a problem when you have NO IDEA what that problem is. The first step is to define the problem… and when I do that, …
Please recall that “Neo”, the hero of the “Matrix” movie, was rerunning the same “program” for the seventh time. (humans are fighting against intelligent machines).
Although “Neo” thought that he was out of the “matrix” he was still in the program. The program had been reset 6 times with variations of the events but with the same final out come. A reset. The problem had not been properly identified. Therefore, the solution could not be found and a reset was done hoping for a variable that would change the outcome, a reset. The objective was to find a sustainable outcome.
Enough.
Back to reality.There is still no consensus on what is the “PROBLEM”. Even if the “PROBLEM” gets identified by an observer nothing will change until it is implemented by “actors”.
As a result, there is no way of implementing a solution to the “problem”.
Is the problem in the financial system?
Is the problem in the social system?
Is the problem in our DNA?
We are all observers in a reality that has been played out 100‘s of times in the history of mankind and it has been recognized by many writers.I believe that the “problem” is in our DNA.
We all want and strive to have a better life for ourself and our loved ones. (Growth!)
During caveman times, you just moved to another valley to get away from any trouble in the clan and created a better life.Over time, the next valley became occupied and finding a place to get a better life became harder and harder.
Now, all the next valleys are occupied. Growth can only occur at the expense of someone else.Can sustainability be achieved without growth, one of our inner driving force of survival?
So … when you ask “Which side are you on?”
My answer is …. MY SIDE.
Your answer is … MY SIDE.
EVERYONE SAYS “MY SIDE.”Its not greed.
Its not selfishness.
Its the way we are made in order to survive.I admit that I didn’t take the time to read all the comments, so please forgive if I repeat.
The question is “which side are you on?”
I’m on the side of my own survival. I am the 99.9%.
Am I offended? No. Offense is only for those that understand that they are being offended. I am the 99.9%
Raise an army to kill the elites? No, I’m not starving, nor can I see that happening. I am the 99.9%.
I am selfish. I am the 99.9%
I don’t take risks. I am the 99.9%
All the talk in the world about whether or not one or the other argument is right is simply a brain fart at this point. The 99.9% will never buy or act on the rhetoric.
Lastly, none of the principles in this argument are ready for the reality and consequences of what they wish so boldly for.
Although I’m perfectly comfortable with violence, I’m not sold on this Orkin Man idea.
In a complex modern society, it seems inevitable that some of the aspects of power are going to consolidate themselves into the hands of the few. Exterminating those few might not really make a difference as their replacements may well succumb to the same temptations and abuses of power.
What seems to me to be of utmost important is simply holding the powerful accountable. Laws are the humane way of doing this. The threat of violence and the fear it can instill is a cruder but also effective measure.
Nobody seems to care about the laws and rules anymore. And the elite having thoroughly shielded themselves from virtually any interaction with the hoi polloi, let alone anything that might be physically threatening or remotely violent.
All of the non-violence/passive resistance talk is a bunch of crap because it cedes one of the best weapons in keeping the rich ruling elite honest, i.e., the risk of getting their head lopped off they abuse their privilege at the expense of others.
Is it any wonder that the most powerful are so gluttonous these days when most of them feel literally untouchable? The balance is messed up. This is partially the fault of the elites but the masses also share some responsibility because we’ve been apathetic and let them get away with it.
An exterminator isn’t needed so much as a guillotine or two. If one had been parked outside Wall Street for the past 40 years perhaps the deterrence alone would have been enough to keep the greed in check. Probably a head should roll every few years anyway just to keep us all honest.
Anyhow, it’s probably best to blame Ghandi and his stupid ideas for today’s financial/governance mess.
Basseterre Kitona post=3778 wrote:
All of the non-violence/passive resistance talk is a bunch of crap because it cedes one of the best weapons in keeping the rich ruling elite honest, i.e., the risk of getting their head lopped off they abuse their privilege at the expense of others.
Is it any wonder that the most powerful are so gluttonous these days when most of them feel literally untouchable? The balance is messed up. This is partially the fault of the elites but the masses also share some responsibility because we’ve been apathetic and let them get away with it.
An exterminator isn’t needed so much as a guillotine or two. If one had been parked outside Wall Street for the past 40 years perhaps the deterrence alone would have been enough to keep the greed in check. Probably a head should roll every few years anyway just to keep us all honest.
Anyhow, it’s probably best to blame Ghandi and his stupid ideas for today’s financial/governance mess.
Bravo. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
RE
Basseterre Kitona post=3778 wrote: In a complex modern society, it seems inevitable that some of the aspects of power are going to consolidate themselves into the hands of the few. Exterminating those few might not really make a difference as their replacements may well succumb to the same temptations and abuses of power.
I think it’s more than that at this point, really. My #1 practical criticism of RE’s plan from the first time I heard about it was not that it sounds like Stalin or Pol Pot (that’s my #2 criticism), but that it sounds exactly like what THEY – TPTB, the NWO elites, the Illuminati, however you want to label them – would use to achieve their goals of global consolidation/control, unprecedented oppression and depopulation, right in front of the eyes of the ignorant masses. What better way than to convince the people that the NWO agenda is actually something that is constructed to destroy the NWO?? We will suddenly find out all of these “revealing” facts about the people who are supposedly at the highest levels of the Illuminati or whatever, and we will be made to think that anyone who is connected to them, via historical connections, belief structures, genealogy, genetics, whatever, must be dealt with as well. Because these will be the people who are “holding us back” from ridding humanity of the “evil forces” and evolving to some higher state of existence. It fit rights into RE’s timeline, too, because first they would need a lot of majorly bad events to go down and a lot of people ready and willing to believe anything they are told about who is responsible.
Kind of puts Mathew 7:15 quoted above in a whole new light. Something that should at least be considered anyway…
ashvin post=3782 wrote: What better way than to convince the people that the NWO agenda is actually something that is constructed to destroy the NWO?? We will suddenly find out all of these “revealing” facts about the people who are supposedly at the highest levels of the Illuminati or whatever, and we will be made to think that anyone who is connected to them, via historical connections, belief structures, genealogy, genetics, whatever, must be dealt with as well. Because these will be the people who are “holding us back” from ridding humanity of the “evil forces” and evolving to some higher state of existence. It fit rights into RE’s timeline, too, because first they would need a lot of majorly bad events to go down and a lot of people ready and willing to believe anything they are told about who is responsible.
What’s the argument here? We mistaken believe the Bilderbergers are connected to the Illuminati? The BIS is just a front and has nothing to do with the control of the global monetary system? The Rockefellers and Rothschilds are actually innocent victims of a propaganda smear? It would be wrong to put BP and TEPCO Executives on trial for Crimes Against Humanity? What?
RE
@Reverse Engineer,
No matter how this thing shakes out, I am not judging you for the Orkin man approach. I think it has merit as long as the procedure is conducive to a sustainable society.Justification for violent behavior in the defense of innocents has always been a part of, not just human behavior, but many other animals as well.
I just saw this video and I think this lady knows the score pretty well. How she continues to believe that the planet can be saved without violence is beyond me but, despite having been exposed to nearly 250,000 farmer suicides in India due to corporate depredation, she still sees a way.
Her take on what constitutes an excess population is similar to mine.
What do you think of her views? (anyone else here that would like to comment on this video, please do).
great debate, thanks people!
The problem within autocratic regimes was always the succession. Stalin’s dead, Mao’s gone, what do we do now?
Democracy provided an excellent solution with the built-in guillotine. Once every X time, we get a chance to fire the whole lot of them.
I must admit a sort of sympathy, even admiration (with a grudge) for guys like Cromwell, Robespierre, Lenin and Trotski.
In a dispute, there can be a point where argument or debate does not any longer suffice. There is a moment where the only argument that we have left is violence. But natural justice demands a fair trial before such violence be meted out.
I humbly propose we should maybe extend the logic of the democratic guillotine : what if any representative, senator, congressman, ceo, found wanting, voted out of office, guilty of coruption, should be immediately guillotined upon leaving office. Why not put some real risk into the games of power? Wouldn’t that be a great incentive for good governance? And just imagine the show : The Public Trial, the March of Shame, and then the Vengeance of the People is carried out in Great Pomp.I don’t much quibble with your vision of what’s coming. All this moral hand-wringing is going to seem quaint, if there are cannibals, fascists and dime-a-dozen bad dudes roaming the street. Character and integrity are required to deal with such things, not wrangling about morals or ethics. As to taking sides, I’m not on any effin side, that’s just more bs Western oppositional dualism, one or the other unto death. As to not gettin’ executed because I won’t offer up unquestioning allegiance to anyone, ever, that’s going to take some savvy maneuvering, but I’ve been preparing for that as long as I can remember.
You’re not taking that bible crap seriously are you? Is this sarcasm, just your way of spiking the punch bowl!!!
Permaculture tells us that energy always follows the pattern. The pattern described in this article is an old one in history. “Let’s get even” is a popular game but it always ends the same way every time. If we want something different, we need a different pattern. I am really surprised that AE has printed this kind of doomer porn.
@RE,
There’s no need for you to be defensive. You make good points within the context you make them. Make the context clear, and demand others recognize the context when describing what you say. I’ve only encountered your writing recently, and I prefer to read your personal honesty any day to watching others hide behind somebody else’s falsehood (i.e., organized religion). You’re good folk (as much as I disagree with you).
There is no such thing as “revealed” truth, only Plato’s Noble Lie.
lukitas post=3786 wrote: great debate, thanks people!
The problem within autocratic regimes was always the succession. Stalin’s dead, Mao’s gone, what do we do now?
Democracy provided an excellent solution with the built-in guillotine. Once every X time, we get a chance to fire the whole lot of them.
I must admit a sort of sympathy, even admiration (with a grudge) for guys like Cromwell, Robespierre, Lenin and Trotski.
In a dispute, there can be a point where argument or debate does not any longer suffice. There is a moment where the only argument that we have left is violence. But natural justice demands a fair trial before such violence be meted out.Agreed. When the leadership stops listening to common sense, you have not only the right but the OBLIGATION to get rid of them.
Jefferson wrote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,[76] that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.If said folks consistently duck a peaceful change, they get what they ask for:
I also have never been in favor of Justice being meted out without a Trial. It is JMHO that the laws need some rewriting and the Punishments should fit the Crimes.
I humbly propose we should maybe extend the logic of the democratic guillotine : what if any representative, senator, congressman, ceo, found wanting, voted out of office, guilty of coruption, should be immediately guillotined upon leaving office. Why not put some real risk into the games of power? Wouldn’t that be a great incentive for good governance? And just imagine the show : The Public Trial, the March of Shame, and then the Vengeance of the People is carried out in Great Pomp.
I am quite certain that motivation for Honest Public Service would be far greater if at the end of each CONgressional Session you roll a few Heads just to keep the rest of them Honest. It doesn’t have to be a lot, just a few of the worst offenders. I mean really, do you think the TEPCO Executives would have been nearly so careless with the Public Safety if they knew if they fucked up they would be required to commit Seppuku?
Back in the old days before the Nips took on Western Moral Values they would have handled this thing correctly.
RE
If it was just a thought experiment – then why did you not state this in the article? I guess you just like to troll.
agelbert post=3785 wrote: @Reverse Engineer,
No matter how this thing shakes out, I am not judging you for the Orkin man approach. I think it has merit as long as the procedure is conducive to a sustainable society.Nor do I hold any truck with you AB for your ideas here either. Just when the Conduits Fail, don’t stand anywhere in the line of fire between the .50 Cal Baretts of the kids in my school and anybody on the Illuminati side of this conflict. Not gonna hole up out there in the Mountains while they still got Infrared detectors in the Apache Helicopter Gunships though. We’ll wait until the Choppers are outta Gas. Not getting in any battle where we are that outmatched. We’ll save the Ammo and Lay Low here for a while yet. When the time comes though, you gotta be ready for it.
RE
Reverse Engineer post=3784 wrote: What’s the argument here? We mistaken believe the Bilderbergers are connected to the Illuminati? The BIS is just a front and has nothing to do with the control of the global monetary system? The Rockefellers and Rothschilds are actually innocent victims of a propaganda smear? It would be wrong to put BP and TEPCO Executives on trial for Crimes Against Humanity? What?
REHere’s the potential scenario:
Your reactionary Orkin (Wo)Man or Wo(men) are already waiting in the wings, prepped by the Illuminati and ready to go when given the green light, probably in some pretty influential positions within governments around the world, but by no means leaders yet. They will wait for some really bad stuff to go down, i.e. a monetary collapse, civil war, perhaps even international war, before these people will come to the rescue through force, probably a military coup led by a ” radical left-wing” political faction. He or she will be a peacemaker of sorts, after violently overthrowing the current establishment. Perhaps it will happen in many different countries at the same time.
The rhetoric and agenda will line up with what many people within both the “fringe” and mainstream populations already believe or are starting to believe (much of which will be at least partly true) – It will talk about corrupt central banks and evil Jewish bankers, corporate CEOs, Zionist war-mongers, vulture capitalists, etc. Basically pointing out how these people are responsible for the putrid state of socioeconomic affairs people find themselves in at that time. At this point the Illuminati will not hesitate to sacrifice a few scapegoats, like your Tepco or BP CEO or whoever is convenient, a few highly visible kleptocrats – just to prove to the rest of us that their motives are genuine.
All the while, though, this new series of reactionary governments across the world will be coordinating with each other and planting the seeds for a truly globalist regime, i.e. one world government, one world religion, one world monetary system, one world everything. The people will already respect them for creating temporary peace and some economic stability, as well as exacting some very satisfying vengeance. The Illuminati would have completely convinced the opposition of the deception. Whether any of this will happen or how exactly it will go down, I have no idea.
What I do know is that many of the psychological seeds for something like this have already been planted, through the memes present in the whole New Age Movement (which actually gets A LOT of mainstream attention), as well as your standard NWO crowd that often leans heavily towards anti-semitism. With regards to the former, their meme is that our ultimate salvation lies in some external force which will usher all of humanity into the “new age”, where everyone is connected to everyone else and can become Divine creatures, and that those who cannot manage to get with the “Utopian” plan must be against it, i.e. agents of the straw man Illuminati, or just not spiritually strong enough, and will need to be taken care of.
There is obviously a lot more going on with all of that stuff, but the basic agenda is straightforward. It’s really a pretty simple deception when you think about it.
Tao Jonesing post=3792 wrote: @RE,
There’s no need for you to be defensive. You make good points within the context you make them. Make the context clear, and demand others recognize the context when describing what you say. I’ve only encountered your writing recently, and I prefer to read your personal honesty any day to watching others hide behind somebody else’s falsehood (i.e., organized religion). You’re good folk (as much as I disagree with you).
There is no such thing as “revealed” truth, only Plato’s Noble Lie.
I don’t think I am being defensive. IMHO, I am taking the Philosophical Battle here to the Enemy. Ashvin is pretty much like every Bible Thumper I ever met, just a good deal smarter than most of them. Arguing with him takes constant creativity and being light on your feet.
This whole series of articles on DD and TAE all come from posting made on one thread El G started on Usury. Surly wrote his original Pol Pot post in that thread, and I suggested he turn that into a Feature Article by filling it out with some of the counter arguments, and then Ashvin chipped in he would repost on TAE long as he could set it up how he wanted. I thought Surly would write a comparative article, but instead he chose to flesh out his own perspective with it. So I then had to go ahead and rebut that one with Unforgiven. Ashvin then went and reconstructed both of those articles and added his own 2 cents to it.
All fine and dandy here, but nobody just reading the post Ashvin constructed is getting the full picture here, and really you should go in and read the entire originating thread to have the most comprehensive view. Lots of stuff ended up on the cutting room floor in everybody’s articles here.
I don’t EVER expect to get agreement on all this stuff from everyone, that Dog Won’t Hunt. The purpose of the entire Thought Experiment is to flesh out all the parameters we face in this spin down, and I KNOW what the most common ideas are. So I think it out and then I take up the contrary position to the Common Wisdom. I lay it out as I understand History and overall History backs me up a whole lot better than it does Ashvin’s arguments.
I can’t stand Knee Jerk reactions to these issues and Boiler Plate “Wisdom” coming off the pages of The Bible, which about nobody really follows in the real world anyhow except a few Saints now and then. Confronted by someone like Ashvin who considers this stuff to be the most consistent and well thought out Religious Philosophy of all Time, I got no choice here but to hammer down on all the reasons it doesn’t WORK in reality, and never has.
Anyhow, its a running battle here, and this is another one of them here on TAE. The Beat Goes On.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umrp1tIBY8Q
RE
ashvin post=3796 wrote:
The rhetoric and agenda will line up with what many people within both the “fringe” and mainstream populations already believe or are starting to believe (much of which will be at least partly true) – It will talk about corrupt central banks and evil Jewish bankers, corporate CEOs, Zionist war-mongers, vulture capitalists, etc. Basically pointing out how these people are responsible for the putrid state of socioeconomic affairs people find themselves in at that time. At this point the Illuminati will not hesitate to sacrifice a few scapegoats, like your Tepco or BP CEO or whoever is convenient, a few highly visible kleptocrats – just to prove to the rest of us that their motives are genuine.
Anybody who does that is OBVIOUSLY an Illuminati Tool.
The only Orkin Man I would actually have some Faith in is one who put all 140 Bilderbergers in front of the Inquisition and sent every last one of them to the Great Beyond.
A few Scapegoats does not Cut the Mustard here and identifies anyone who attempts this methodology as a tool of the Illuminati. A REAL Orkin Man would knock them ALL DOWN.
If David Rockefeller, Nathan Rothschild, Henry Kissinger, George Soros Bill Gates, et al; all the major Stockholders and Board of Directors of Monsanto, Dupont, IBM, GE et al do not get a summons from the Auto da Fe to appear in front of the Inquisition, it is a FAKE and not to be believed.
I do not think that the Bilderbergers are going to hire an Orkin Man who will exterminate ALL of them. This would be an extremely counter productive methodology from the Illuminati side of the Battle.
RE
Reverse Engineer post=3797 wrote:
I don’t think I am being defensive. IMHO, I am taking the Philosophical Battle here to the Enemy. Ashvin is pretty much like every Bible Thumper I ever met, just a good deal smarter than most of them. Arguing with him takes constant creativity and being light on your feet.
Look, the fact is that these are philosophical/spiritual positions established LONG before you, I or Tao Jonesing were ever around. There are true Christians out there who think we are right now immersed in an ultimate battle of Good vs. Evil, just like you do, except the force they have on their side makes your rag tag group of wannabe Outlaw Josey Wales gunslingers look like little kids playing in a sandbox. Their battle spans the Heavens and the Earth and involves demons, angels, Satan, God, humans and everything else you can think of.
Now you obviously will want to write all of these spiritual folk off as nutjobs who believe in fairy tales, but they are just as smart as you are and have spent years studying the exact same issues you have studied. They know all about the NWO and the Illuminati and the GFC and peak oil. They know everything there is to know about the Bible’s alleged inconsistencies, contradictions, and flaws. None of that changes the underlying theological message and values conveyed, which in their eyes are infinitely more important than your Thought Experiments will ever be.
The exact same thing can probably be said of Jews, Hindus and others who have been at the business of figuring shit out through experience, logic, critical thinking and faith for thousands of years. You are not special, RE, and neither am I. We are just two people who have our spins on history and reality and the future and the human experience, just like a whole lot of other very smart people out there. And, yes, that includes the “Bible-thumping nut jobs”. Their ideas may offend your delicate materialist worldview, but that’s your issue to overcome, not theirs.
ashvin post=3799 wrote:
Look, the fact is that these are philosophical/spiritual positions established LONG before you, I or Tao Jonesing were ever around. There are true Christians out there who think we are right now immersed in an ultimate battle of Good vs. Evil, just like you do, except the force they have on their side makes your rag tag group of wannabe Outlaw Josey Wales gunslingers look like little kids playing in a sandbox. Their battle spans the Heavens and the Earth and involves demons, angels, Satan, God, humans and everything else you can think of.
I’ll put my kids up against these folks anytime. No more pussy footing around with this stuff.
Name the place and time. Bring on the Gog and the Magog. Let’s have it out here. B)
Now you obviously will want to write all of these spiritual folk off as nutjobs who believe in fairy tales, but they are just as smart as you are and have spent years studying the exact same issues you have studied. They know all about the NWO and the Illuminati and the GFC and peak oil. They know everything there is to know about the Bible’s alleged inconsistencies, contradictions, and flaws. None of that changes the underlying theological message and values conveyed, which in their eyes are infinitely more important than your Thought Experiments will ever be.
JYHO Ashvin. MAYBE 1:1,000,000 is as smart as I am. That is what the testing says anyhow 🙂 I didn’t sacrifice 3 years of my childhood here with the Psychs for no reason apparently. Bring ’em on TAE, I will take them ALL on. My Chess skills are rusty for playing 10 games at once, but not my debating skills. Bring on 100 though, I probably wil be swamped out on time. I cannot keyboard that fast. :woohoo:
The exact same thing can probably be said of Jews, Hindus and others who have been at the business of figuring shit out through experience, logic, critical thinking and faith for thousands of years. You are not special, RE, and neither am I. We are just two people who have our spins on history and reality and the future and the human experience, just like a whole lot of other very smart people out there. And, yes, that includes the “Bible-thumping nut jobs”. Their ideas may offend your delicate materialist worldview, but that’s your issue to overcome, not theirs.
Overcome it I will. I never quit. Just takes time, patience and a whole LOT of keyboarding to do it. Not to mention the Beer. 😆
I found a glass slipper or maybe its a hat.
I think it might belong to one of the posters 🙂
“Action Heroes”
or
writers for the plot line of”Continuum”
Set in Vancouver British Columbia, the year is 2077, world governments have fallen and have been bought out by corporations leading to loss of privacy and basic rights. A group of fanatical terrorists, bent on getting freedom back at all costs, destroy multiple buildings killing 30,000 people while targeting 20 members of the Corporate Board. As the 7 terrorists are about to be executed they attempt an escape by being sent back in time 6 years instead being sent back 65 years to our time, 2012.
What are the odds …
Kagame…
… reset of Liber8’s agenda.Reverse Engineer post=3798 wrote: If David Rockefeller, Nathan Rothschild, Henry Kissinger, George Soros Bill Gates, et al; all the major Stockholders and Board of Directors of Monsanto, Dupont, IBM, GE et al do not get a summons from the Auto da Fe to appear in front of the Inquisition, it is a FAKE and not to be believed.
No shit, Sherlock…
The reality is that neither you nor I nor anyone else here will end up heading up a movement like OMMP. And, yeah, it will be painfully obvious to all of us when it actually happens that it is a deception, especially after we remember talking about that scenario in this thread…
You will be especially enraged when it all happens and I can see you yelling at the top of your lungs, “The Illuminati stole my idea to get rid of them!!” But no one will listen or care at that point. This scenario is a much more realistic outcome for OMMP than the Idealistic one you posit in your arguments, which is part of the reason why I think we need to be vigilant to defend against those who seek to advocate or pursue it.
I’ll put my kids up against these folks anytime. No more pussy footing around with this stuff.
OK RE, I’ll go down this line of thinking with you a little bit.
Basically what you’ve been doing here in re: spirituality is what you vociferously accused me of doing in that one thread awhile ago – ridiculing someone for having “radical” ideas. Except, I actually did some research on Icke and his theories before I started ridiculing him.
Have you really looked into the details of Bible, in terms of historical descriptions, inter-Biblical consistency and, most importantly, theological messaging? We’re talking about a set of the most comprehensive and consistent (yet also complex) ancient documents ever written down, copied and transmitted. Parts of the Dead Sea Scrolls from the OT date all the way back to 380 BCE.
There are are plenty of Biblical Scholars out there who are not Christian or Jewish, RE. I’m sure they could provide you plenty of fodder for your critiques of the Bible and the Christian Faith, but you have to actually do the research before you are justified in ridicule (and none of them really end up “ridiculing” it anyway). And I guarantee that research will raise a lot more questions for you before they raise a lot more answers, but that’s just the nature of the beast.
I find it hilarious that so many “liberal progressive” types these days dismiss the Bible off-hand as looney tunes without bothering to study it in the least, but unconditionally accept other historical/philisophical accounts written by the Ancient Greeks and Romans during the SAME time period, ones that are less preserved and less consistent between copies. Hilarious, but also an unsurprising reflection of the lazy armchair-opinionated “scholarship” that passes for critical thinking these days.
Many of these people also claim to actually believe in some type of God or higher plane of existence, and adopt all kinds of Eastern spirituality into their “beliefs” in the process. So, in essence, they are claiming to have some generalized belief in all kinds of things derived from ancient spirituality, but refuse to commit to any specific beliefs that are actually found in the ancient texts in which that spirituality has been meticulously defined.
So there is no YHWH or Satan, but there is a higher power that influences all manner of human activities on Earth. There is no Vishnu or Bramha or Shiva, but there are some generalized Lords of Karma and a nearly infinite process of soul reincarnation. But when it comes to analyzing Earthly situations, those belief structures don’t have any applicability because they have been generalized and diluted to point of being meaningless, so they are not even really “beliefs” at all. It’s ridiculous and it makes no common sense.
ashvin post=3806 wrote: [quote=Reverse Engineer post=3798]If David Rockefeller, Nathan Rothschild, Henry Kissinger, George Soros Bill Gates, et al; all the major Stockholders and Board of Directors of Monsanto, Dupont, IBM, GE et al do not get a summons from the Auto da Fe to appear in front of the Inquisition, it is a FAKE and not to be believed.
No shit, Sherlock…
The reality is that neither you nor I nor anyone else here will end up heading up a movement like OMMP. And, yeah, it will be painfully obvious to all of us when it actually happens that it is a deception, especially after we remember talking about that scenario in this thread…
You will be especially enraged when it all happens and I can see you yelling at the top of your lungs, “The Illuminati stole my idea to get rid of them!!” But no one will listen or care at that point. This scenario is a much more realistic outcome for OMMP than the Idealistic one you posit in your arguments, which is part of the reason why I think we need to be vigilant to defend against those who seek to advocate or pursue it.
Ashvin, you nailed it.The rest is all “sound and fury, signifying nothing.”
There are several objections to the “Orkin solution” as proposed here and some have been expressed above. The metaphor of “pests” to be “cleansed” is abhorrent and reeks of eugenics. One problem with this path is that you can’t get them all. You can never get them all. This is because the characteristics you are trying to get rid of are in all of us. That’s right – ALL of us. Never mind that innocents will be killed as well. Some day the deciders and the planners and the executors of the Orkin plan will be tried and convicted and they themselves will be killed by others who have decided (at long last when they have re-invented law) that they committed crimes against humanity. This will be the right thing to do since those who perpetrated this violence will have lost their humanity by then, by killing others whom they had deemed to have lost their humanity. Societies have always claimed the right to kill members who violate the rules (laws) but it’s a decision taken by the society, not a few individuals.
Our species is overrunning its habitat and biology is kicking in. Billions will die and we don’t have to help it along. I am convinced that the Orkin moment will happen as described, but I did not expect to see the manifesto published on TAE. It seems to be what people do when things get too complex. Ian Welsh has a post up about this and one commenter said, “I knew you would write this.” Some above have said that we should leave it to god. I say leave it to biology, but yes, this Orkin impulse is genetic and therefore biological.
In the 1990’s I heard an interview with the man who invented nitrogen fertilizer and caused the “green revolution” as it was called in the 1950’s. He said the invention saved 5 million people from starvation. The interviewer said that due to soil depletion caused by the use of the fertilizer, now we face 50 million people starving to death. Was it worth it? He answered yes. I say no.
The Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski, wrote about all of this in his work, but no one paid attention and he decided to kill some people to get his work known. Have you read his stuff? I bet you would agree with it. There’s a good article on him in a recent Chronicle of Higher Education, called “The Unabomber’s Pen Pal.” What line did he cross, in your opinion?
Our technical solutions, including Orkin, will make matters worse, not better. Let biology crash the species. If it includes me, and it will because I’m old, that’s fine. Jared Diamond argues that even agriculture was a mistake. Any technique that allows some people to produce enough food to feed more than their own families causes: religion, formal leadership, soldiers, war, guns, germs and steel. What exactly was wrong with hunting and gathering? We are animals and we should live like it. If we did, then famines, natural disasters, accidents, epidemics, etc. would control the population and we can be in balance with the rest of the planet. It seems humans cannot resist messing with success.
The Truth and Reconcilliation Commission was indeed a shining example for humanity; if we could achieve the same in the US as its empire unravels, that would indeed be perfect. Perfect is an important word there: conditions in South Africa were about as perfect as humanity can get…Mandella had paid his dues, the industrialized world was still enjoying the peace and plenty of increasing net energy, and the international community was watching and encouraging the process. Once things get ugly in the US, probably none of those conditions will be present at the time.
Jal, I’m currently also thinking along the lines DNA being a big part of humanity’s problems.
Selco, who writes a blog about his experiences during the seige of Kosovo, made a discovery that truly horrified me. He learned that one of his neighbors, who seemed like a ‘regular guy’, turned out to be a psychopath who was delighted that the anarchy allowed him to behave the way he had always want to. The neighbor joined a self-organized gang that stole whatever they could from the weak and vulnerable, kidnapped women for repeated rape, and generally enjoyed terrorizing anyone else who didn’t happen to have something they wanted. This neighbor suggested that Selco join them, saying this would be his golden opportunity to “do what he had always wanted to do”!
I’ve also read recently that some social scientists estimated that about 10% of Americans qualify as psychopaths but are mostly kept in check by social pressure and a system of laws and enforcement.
Is this situation due to the basic sickness of American society, or is that a typical distribution based on genetic predisposition?
I would sure support an Orkin Man who could take this segment of the population out of the gene pool; they are the ones who are drawn like moths to positions of economic, political, or religious power so they can do “what they always wanted to do”.
Before yall grind on me about eugenics, try to keeep in mind this is a forum for inquiry, not a call to action!
pansceptic post=3816 wrote: Jal, I’m currently also thinking along the lines DNA being a big part of humanity’s problems.
This neighbor suggested that Selco join them, saying this would be his golden opportunity to “do what he had always wanted to do”!
//
I would sure support an Orkin Man who could take this segment of the population out of the gene pool; they are the ones who are drawn like moths to positions of economic, political, or religious power so they can do “what they always wanted to do”.
I think my article–not RE’s– points out that is precisely this sort of psychopath who self-anoints as “The Orkin Man.” When law and order break down, you may rest assured it will be the psychopaths, many uniformed police among them, who will terrorize the countryside. Who will stop them? To what extent will we go to stop them?
As to a basic sickness in (American) or western society, I was moved by a reference to “wetiko,” or cannibal culture encountered in Thom Hartmann’s book “The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight.” The natives watched in wonder as the whites consumed everything they encountered, like so many locusts in a wheat field, or ants stripping a carcass. Ultimately, it is the “unlimited growth” paradigm that is at the heart of the sickness that afflicts our souls. The ability to store surplus starts with agriculture; perhaps Jared Diamond was right.
RE and others mock the Bible and Christian tenets, which is their prerogative. Organized religion makes it easy; barely a week goes by without some loudmouth fundy making mock of what the Prince of Peace actually is attributed to have said. I am reminded of what Gandhi said about Christianity: “I like your Christ very much. Your Christians are not very much like your Christ.” Sez it all. I try to live and make moral choices in some nodding acquaintance with what Jesus said. And he did indeed say, “Give us THIS day our daily bread.”
Flies right in the face of the unlimited growth paradigm, from where I sit.
Ashvin, I can understand why the concept of NWO/Illuminati is attractive – after all, isn’t it more reassuring to believe that at least SOMEONE is in control, even if they are evil geniuses? What if the more frightening reality is that there’s really just a loose confederation of psychopaths, driven by individual greed, lust for power, and short-sighted decision making?
Regarding the NWO, the USA did not spend all that money on weapons sytems and bases just to let some other organization rule the world. If there is a world government, as long as that military machine is functional it sure as hell won’t be headquartered ANYWHERE other than the US.
Functionally the US empire is the NWO; its reach is truly global. It operates on the neo-colonial model: we don’t waste our time trying to physically occupy countries with resources, we just set up our puppets to collect and forward the tribute to the US.
There was a damned good reason Osama Bin Laden had to be taken out; he was a pretty effective Orkin Man. He correcty observed that Manahatten is the capitol of the present Evil Empire (TM), and shot it right in the head when he took out the “World Trade Center”.
@goldOxen–you said, “Your good intentions are noted and most appreciated. My personal opinion is that RE has gone off the deep end with this one, and both you and Surly, being among the brightest and respected bulbs in our meeting places, have given substance and legitimacy to this Orkin Man madness buy treating it seriously. “
As you are well aware, there is no anonymity on the internet, but there is a huge amount of censorship. Most of the controversial stuff you read is for a purpose other than the stated one. In particular, most (if not all) sites like this one are for the purpose of getting Timothy McVeigh types to out themselves to the FBI/CIA/Illuminati.
You can’t for one instant think these guys are serious do you?
When you see someone posting racist views, such as anti-negro or anti-jew, you can bet it is someone protecting the President or the Jewish Anti-defamation league trying to get hatemongers to out themselves publicly.
The internet is not an exercise in freedom. As someone involved in experimental farming research, I can tell you that there is no way I could do my research without the net. Same with ordering the best pizza in a strange town. But that is garden variety information.
The only way this discussion is legit is if they are posting from a cell at Gitmo, lol…….
pansceptic post=3816 wrote: I would sure support an Orkin Man who could take this segment of the population out of the gene pool; they are the ones who are drawn like moths to positions of economic, political, or religious power so they can do “what they always wanted to do”.
Well, I don’t want to “grind you” here, but what you are describing IS Eugenics and IS exactly one major fear that I have with any Orkin Man Master Plan that ends up coming onto the scene. It is relatively easy for a deceptive force to conjure up about false information/data about this “genetic predisposition” to evil and who or who may not have it.
If you can actually point me towards some legitimate scientific studies that have isolated psychopathic tendencies to parts of the human genome, then we have something to talk about. If not, then we are engaged in pure, baseless speculation and it is potentially very dangerous speculation at that.
What if the more frightening reality is that there’s really just a loose confederation of psychopaths, driven by individual greed, lust for power, and short-sighted decision making?
Regardless of how you want to label them, Illuminati or “loose confederation”, I think it is undeniable that there are relatively few people who have concentrated most of the world’s wealth and exercise a good deal of control over political, economic, cultural systems. I do not believe these people were destined to occupy this role because of their genetics, because the evidence for that simply isn’t there. If we want to general descriptive labels, I like the one “deceptive force”, because that’s what they ultimately do – deceive us for their own selfish goals. The U.S. MIC is no doubt a key part of this force.
Surly1 post=3817 wrote:
RE and others mock the Bible and Christian tenets, which is their prerogative. Organized religion makes it easy; barely a week goes by without some loudmouth fundy making mock of what the Prince of Peace actually is attributed to have said. I am reminded of what Gandhi said about Christianity: “I like your Christ very much. Your Christians are not very much like your Christ.” Sez it all. I try to live and make moral choices in some nodding acquaintance with what Jesus said. And he did indeed say, “Give us THIS day our daily bread.”Flies right in the face of the unlimited growth paradigm, from where I sit.
Yeah, and even the OT God as well. The Israelites were given/shown “manna” during their journey through the Desert, but were instructed only to take what they could consume in one day, because any surplus “bred worms and stank”. I think this can be taken literally and symbolically. With the latter, the surplus is being associated with the evil that breeds in humanity when they are tempted by materialist desires, above and beyond those necessary for physical survival. I don’t think it is a completely unavoidable outcome, since we ultimately have free will no matter what kind of surplus is present, but the Test of that will becomes exponentially greater.
Generally and unfortunately, we have failed these tests over and over again throughout history…
If it is a choice between the Orkin Man and Bryan Stevenson, I would take the latter every time.
I recommend that you check out this TED video:
ashvin post=3806 wrote:
No shit, Sherlock…
The reality is that neither you nor I nor anyone else here will end up heading up a movement like OMMP. And, yeah, it will be painfully obvious to all of us when it actually happens that it is a deception, especially after we remember talking about that scenario in this thread…
You will be especially enraged when it all happens and I can see you yelling at the top of your lungs, “The Illuminati stole my idea to get rid of them!!” But no one will listen or care at that point. This scenario is a much more realistic outcome for OMMP than the Idealistic one you posit in your arguments, which is part of the reason why I think we need to be vigilant to defend against those who seek to advocate or pursue it.
This is Elementary, my dear Watson. Whether your deduction is the more realistic scenario or not is open to conjecture, but the fact is that if it does indeed play out that way it is NOT the OMMP, it is then the IMP, Illuminati Master Plan. The significant DIFFERENCE between these two plans is who ends up DEAD here. In the OMMP, it is mostly Illuminati who end up dead (by percentage, not absolute numbers of course since they represent only .01% of the total population). In the IMP, mostly J6Ps end up dead. Given the Morton’s Fork choice here that it is going to go one way or the other, Sherlock here picks the OMMP.
You set yourself up for that one Watson. You are without doubt the best Straight Man I ever got to throw the Punch Line at. 😀
Sherlock RE
Surly1 post=3817 wrote:
RE and others mock the Bible and Christian tenets, which is their prerogative.
This is again an incomplete characterization of my thinking Surly. I mock EVERYTHING which Home Sapiens has come up with as a solution to existential problems since first purposefully planting Millet. Before that we were doing OK. Like Don Rickles, you can’t call me a bigot because I make fun of EVERYBODY.
As you say though, Bible Thumpers make it easy, because about none of them except a few Saints follow directives like “If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.” WTF does that in a cold climate? You would freeze to death in minutes in the Winter here in Alaska if you did that. Its nuts. This is why Saints invariably end up dead.
RE
ashvin post=3809 wrote:
There are are plenty of Biblical Scholars out there who are not Christian or Jewish, RE. I’m sure they could provide you plenty of fodder for your critiques of the Bible and the Christian Faith, but you have to actually do the research before you are justified in ridicule (and none of them really end up “ridiculing” it anyway). And I guarantee that research will raise a lot more questions for you before they raise a lot more answers, but that’s just the nature of the beast.
Where is it Written that you have to do “research” to elucidate the Truth? If I am sitting under a tree and an Apple plops on my head, do I need to do research to know that apples always fall down after disengaging from trees they grow on? They NEVER fall UP. I do of course need a math background to work up a symbolic representation of how fast they accelerate, but I don’t need to do a hell of a lot of research past that already contained in First Principles I already learned or figured out over time.
If there was a lot of variance in how Homo Sapiens behaves in conditions like we are working our way into here it would be problematic, but there isn’t much variance. That a Peaceful Solution with everyone Turning the Other Cheek is going to occur here is Unlikely in the EXTREMIS. Given that knowledge, then if you want to engineer a Good Outcome, you figure out how the Variables work in the Violent solutons that always ARE actually taken. Apples ALWAYS fall down Ashvin, and Homo Sapiens ALWAYS reacts violently when confronted with life threatening situations such as Starvation and violent oppression. You can’t make Apples fall up Ashvin.
RE
Reverse Engineer post=3829 wrote: [quote=ashvin post=3809]
Where is it Written that you have to do “research” to elucidate the Truth? If I am sitting under a tree and an Apple plops on my head, do I need to do research to know that apples always fall down after disengaging from trees they grow on? They NEVER fall UP. I do of course need a math background to work up a symbolic representation of how fast they accelerate, but I don’t need to do a hell of a lot of research past that already contained in First Principles I already learned or figured out over time.If there was a lot of variance in how Homo Sapiens behaves in conditions like we are working our way into here it would be problematic, but there isn’t much variance. That a Peaceful Solution with everyone Turning the Other Cheek is going to occur here is Unlikely in the EXTREMIS. Given that knowledge, then if you want to engineer a Good Outcome, you figure out how the Variables work in the Violent solutons that always ARE actually taken. Apples ALWAYS fall down Ashvin, and Homo Sapiens ALWAYS reacts violently when confronted with life threatening situations such as Starvation and violent oppression. You can’t make Apples fall up Ashvin.
RE
I don’t have much time right now, but let me just make two points in response really quickly here:
1) Gotta love when people reference the silly idea that deep thinkers like Newton discovered some form of Truth by having an apple fall on his head. It only seems that way in our post-scientific worldview when we look back hundreds of years… in reality, it takes a lot more mental effort and, yes, research/collaboration with others.
2) Do you not see the ass backwards logic you are using? On one hand, you claim that only very few people have actually been able to stick to true Christian principles over the years (something I would agree with), and the other hand you say that we therefore need to abandon those principles and keep doing the same shit we have been doing for thousands of years, which has ALWAYS resulted in bad outcomes and has brought us exactly to where we are today. You want to turn all of humanity into violent robots and, I’m very glad to break it you RE, but you are dead wrong about that.
ashvin post=3830 wrote:
1) Gotta love when people reference the silly idea that deep thinkers like Newton discovered some form of Truth by having an apple fall on his head. It only seems that way in our post-scientific worldview when we look back hundreds of years… in reality, it takes a lot more mental effort and, yes, research/collaboration with others.
Bullshit. The smartest guys I ever met were nerds who locked themselves in their dorm rooms and never talked to anybody except maybe the Voices in their own heads like John Nash. In a lecture he gave when I was back there in Academia, Richard Feynman answered a question from yours truly on where he got his insights, and he said he stopped thinking about what everybody else had figured out and started up from the few things he was sure enough of to go with. I will add here Feynman was probably the funniest guy EVER to walk the halls of Academia.
2) Do you not see the ass backwards logic you are using? On one hand, you claim that only very few people have actually been able to stick to true Christian principles over the years (something I would agree with), and the other hand you say that we therefore need to abandon those principles and keep doing the same shit we have been doing for thousands of years, which has ALWAYS resulted in bad outcomes and has brought us exactly to where we are today. You want to turn all of humanity into violent robots and, I’m very glad to break it you RE, but you are dead wrong about that.
Even if you DO postulate that what we SHOULD do is try to make Apples fall Up here, they won’t do that Ashvin. I am not going to “to turn all of humanity into violent robots”, violent robots is what they ALWAYS become when confronted with life threatening circumstances.
What brought us to where we are today is not the violent tendencies of Homo Sapiens, we are no different from the rest of the Animal Kingdom in that way and they do just fine overall. What got us to this point was first the Peaceful Occupation of Planting Millet and then the massive skew in Power Distribution that evolved from that. The unceasing Inventiveness of our species also contributed greatly to this problem, finding ever more ways to rapidly consume the resources of Mother Earth. Now we are FORCED into REVERSE ENGINEERING our way back out of this 10 millenia long MISTAKE, and TRUST ME on this, it will NOT happen peacefully. I GUARANTEE IT.
RE
I have added a New Link on the DD Newz Page for Holmes-Watson Debates between myself and Ashvin. If you want to follow the endless rounds of this keyboard brawl whether they occur here on TAE or on DD, this link will take you to the latest venue for the Thrilla in Doomervilla.
Down Goes Frazier! Down Goes Frazier!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9q7mvc6bsY
RE
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